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I just bought a Winchester 1895 on GunBroker. When I received the rifle the serial number is 3770, but is has a “fluted side” receiver and not flat sides. All that I have read in books and online is that the Model 1895 “fluted side” receivers weren’t made until after serial number 5000.
The rifle is in very good condition, but I am concerned about the serial number. Can anybody help me? Is it true the “fluted side” receivers weren’t made until after serial number 5000?
Thanks, Dick Pike
Yes, the transition to the second model scalloped receiver was at approximately SN 5000, but there was some overlap. For example I have a lettered 303 British flatside, SN 5253. There were also some very low serial numbered second models with lower serial numbers than yours, so it is possible that you have one of these early second models.
Be sure to check the serial numbers very carefully and with a magnifying glass. In order to make them fit across the lower tang, Winchester used very small stamps. I have run into several 1895’s who’s seller missed a serial number. In fact, I just received one last week from James Julia Auctions that was advertised as an antique four digit gun and is actually a five digit modern gun. The last digit was a one, stamped right next to the edge of the tang and was quite easy to miss.
Double check the serial number and if it looks right, I’d be happy to get a serial number search from Cody for you.
Mark
Hi Mark, I would really appreciate it if you could check the Cody Museum serial numbers – Winchester Model 1895; Cal .405; with a Lyman side mounted sight. Serial number 3770. It also has the 2 piece cocking lever.
I have a great suspicion that this rifle has had the serial number changed. Where the serial number is stamped the tang has a depression almost as if has been filed or ground down. There is a “B” on the rear of the tang under the cocking lever. I can’t find anything about what that means.
I bought it on Gunbroker for $4,125.00. As soon as I opened the box yesterday, I emailed the seller with my concerns, regarding the serial number. So far he has not responded to my email.
Thanks, Dick
I’ll let you know what I find. I can tell you with near certainty that either the serial number or the caliber have been changed. Serial number 3770 would have been manufactured in 1897 and the earliest 405’s weren’t produced until the fall of 1903.
According to George Madis in The Winchester Book, “Letters A or B by serial numbers denote basic changes in magazine springs and firing pin retractors as well as other minor changes.” The letter B in particular is quite common on ’95’s.
Richard,
As Mark pointed out, the serial number you mention is way too early for it to be an original 405 WCF. Is the top of the frame ring knurled/matted ?
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Mark Douglas said
Be sure to check the serial numbers very carefully and with a magnifying glass. In order to make them fit across the lower tang, Winchester used very small stamps…was advertised as an antique four digit gun and is actually a five digit modern gun. The last digit was a one, stamped right next to the edge of the tang and was quite easy to miss.
Can you post a photograph of this?
What did James Julia do when notified of the discrepancy?
Hi Bert, yes there is a slight Knurling or Matting on the top of the receiver ring. Thank you for your help.
Richard Pike said
Hi Bert, yes there is a slight Knurling or Matting on the top of the receiver ring. Thank you for your help.
OK, that indicates to me that the serial number may be altered, or as Mark mentioned, a digit was overlooked.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
August 11, 2015
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Bert,
Just wondering if you could give me some insight as to the significance of the matting.
I have an 1895 that has the knurled/matting on the receiver ring; it is SN 52989.
Thanks,
Mark Fischer said
Bert,Just wondering if you could give me some insight as to the significance of the matting.
I have an 1895 that has the knurled/matting on the receiver ring; it is SN 52989.
Thanks,
Mark,
Winchester matted the frame rings for the rifles made in 35 WCF and 405 WCF only… I do not know why they did it, but they did. It is just one of the many visual clues that I use to identify original or faked 405 WCF rifles.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Cody records indicate that SN 3770 left the factory as a standard 30 caliber (30/40 Krag) rifle. Serial number applied on May 6, 1897. Received in warehouse on Aug. 9, 1897 and shipped the same day.
In my opinion, it is highly unlikely that 3770 belongs to the rifle you have described. As Bert noted about the matted receiver being available on 35 WCF and 405 WCF’s and the fact that it is chambered in 405, makes me think that it’s current configuration is likely correct, but with an altered serial number. Certainly, the fact that the area around the serial number appears to have been filed down would point to this as well.
Richard, is it possible for you to post a picture of the serial # and the area around it? Sure would like to see that if possible. Will help with pictures if you need it.
Also, I am not sure why someone would change the serial # on that rifle. I am not saying it wasn’t, just don’t understand why.
Peter
Eagle said
Also, I am not sure why someone would change the serial # on that rifle. I am not saying it wasn’t, just don’t understand why.
Peter
Very simple… the original serial was not “antique”, and as altered, it is.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
I just can’t imagine all that work and deceit just for that?? It is a mentality that I will never understand.
FYI, a large number of .30-03 and 30-06 Sporting Rifles also have matted receiver rings.
I want to thank everyone, especially Mark and Bert, who participated. I have attached pictures of the serial number area on the tang. It looks pretty obvious to me that it has been altered. Of course the seller did not show this area on the photos he posted on Gunbroker. And, he has not replied to my emails that I sent him as soon as I opened the shipping carton.
Thanks for posting the picture. There is no doubt that the serial number has been altered and whoever did it made a complete mess of it. They ground so deep that they got into the wood. The font on the numbers is completely different than the very square stamps Winchester used on 1895’s. After seeing the pictures, my guess is that it was stolen by Bubba at some point in its history and he ground out the serial number, then just picked one at random to replace it. The seller should absolutely have disclosed this issue and refund your money.
Bert H. said
Very simple… the original serial was not “antique”, and as altered, it is.
Bert
Bert……….. That can’t be the only place a serial number was stamped. I don’t know much about 95’s but certainly there must be someplace else the original serial number was stamped.
Len
Not sure what you can do about it, but that is outright fraud. Was there returns mentioned in the auction? I can hardly believe that someone would do that. Would you post a link to the auction? Peter
Thanks guys, the seller did post “no returns”, however I think that this is outright fraud, and that should statement should not apply in this case.
Also, I think selling a gun with an altered serial number could be a problem with the ATF. I have no way of knowing if this rifle was stolen at some point.
In my latest email to the seller, I told him I have no choice but to report this to the AFT in Jacksonville Florida where he lives.
Dick
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