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Winchester Bob makes the replacement parts you need, they are very good!
clarence said
John D. said
I spoke with Bob today on the phone. He has the parts, and as an aside can re-install the saddle ring and post while allowing the Lyman 21 to still function correctly. As an added bonus, if I ship the gun to him he can install it all and age the parts to match the patina of the gun. Between parts and shipping to/from, I’m looking at about $200 more or less. Hmmm…….
Suit yourself, but removing that stupid & useless ring was the best improvement made on the gun. Ring or no ring, the gun will never pass muster with those obsessed with “factory original,” so if you’re considering doing this with that intention in mind, it won’t help.
Even though this carbine doesn’t meet “collectable” status, the presence of a ring is additive for a great many buyers out there. Yes, it is useless and generally a hindrance (e.g. noise in the woods) but rings are popular with many. The ring adds nostalgia and character. Over the years I’ve known several dealers who, when they take a carbine in without a ring (i.e. the carbine was manufactured during the period rings were an option), they install a ring. The reasoning was always simple: “people will pay more.” I would contend if this carbine were offered on gunbroker with a ring, and without a ring, the ring version would bring more money.
steve004 said I would contend if this carbine were offered on gunbroker with a ring, and without a ring, the ring version would bring more money.
$200 more?
By the way, on the subject of “mindlessness,” did you notice in the current Rifleman the notice of the new repro US cavalry sling? The maker must have described how it was meant to be used in service (otherwise the staff writer would have had no clue), but he STILL referred to the point of attachment on the carbine as a “SADDLE ring”!
November 7, 2015
Offline
Even if a ring doesn’t bring more money the carbine will appeal to more buyers, especially if it originally had one. I’d rather have the Lyman sight but that’s just me.
Mike
TXGunNut said
Even if a ring doesn’t bring more money the carbine will appeal to more buyers, especially if it originally had one. I’d rather have the Lyman sight but that’s just me.
Mike
To be clear, Bob offered to make the sight right and install the ring and post. It is not an either or proposition. I’d get both, and he would patina them to match the gun.
clarence said
steve004 said I would contend if this carbine were offered on gunbroker with a ring, and without a ring, the ring version would bring more money.
$200 more?
I wasn’t really considering resale value, as I seldom sell a gun – much less a Winchester lever gun. 🙂 However, I am on the fence with this one.
The breakdown was thus:
$125 for the necessary sight parts, as my sight is missing enough that it was more cost effective to buy the mounting kit rather than the individual missing bits.
$30 for the saddle ring and post installed. So – $155, plus shipping if I wanted him to assemble it for me.
The question really is whether to leave the carbine “as found”, or fix the sight to restore it to original fit and function. If that answer to that is “yes”, then the next question is whether to spend the extra $50 or so to restore the missing post/ring.
John D. said
I wasn’t really considering resale value, as I seldom sell a gun – much less a Winchester lever gun. 🙂 However, I am on the fence with this one.
The breakdown was thus:
$125 for the necessary sight parts, as my sight is missing enough that it was more cost effective to buy the mounting kit rather than the individual missing bits.
$30 for the saddle ring and post installed. So – $155, plus shipping if I wanted him to assemble it for me.
The question really is whether to leave the carbine “as found”, or fix the sight to restore it to original fit and function. If that answer to that is “yes”, then the next question is whether to spend the extra $50 or so to restore the missing post/ring.
Are you going to be able to send & receive it without going through an FFL? Shouldn’t be necessary for repair work, but now shippers make the rules & they all HATE guns, even though they make money shipping them. Shipping alone, with ins., may run you close to $100, but of course I’m guessing. I can’t see how the ring would not interfere with the sight, but Bob knows more than I about that. Rubbing down, or “aging,” the blue on the lever would not be difficult, but if you’ve never done it before, might be best to have Bob do it. My attitude about the ring itself I need not repeat, but all the chatter about “resale” makes me slightly nauseous.
clarence said
John D. said
I wasn’t really considering resale value, as I seldom sell a gun – much less a Winchester lever gun. 🙂 However, I am on the fence with this one.
The breakdown was thus:
$125 for the necessary sight parts, as my sight is missing enough that it was more cost effective to buy the mounting kit rather than the individual missing bits.
$30 for the saddle ring and post installed. So – $155, plus shipping if I wanted him to assemble it for me.
The question really is whether to leave the carbine “as found”, or fix the sight to restore it to original fit and function. If that answer to that is “yes”, then the next question is whether to spend the extra $50 or so to restore the missing post/ring.
Are you going to be able to send & receive it without going through an FFL? Shouldn’t be necessary for repair work, but now shippers make the rules & they all HATE guns, even though they make money shipping them. Shipping alone, with ins., may run you close to $100, but of course I’m guessing. I can’t see how the ring would not interfere with the sight, but Bob knows more than I about that. Rubbing down, or “aging,” the blue on the lever would not be difficult, but if you’ve never done it before, might be best to have Bob do it. My attitude about the ring itself I need not repeat, but all the chatter about “resale” makes me slightly nauseous.
I have no issue with shipping and receiving. I have a 03 FFL, but USPS or UPS has never asked any questions.
Frankly, I’m leaning towards enjoying it as found or just ordering the sight repair kit for $125. Bob said he mills a space in the saddle ring mount for the lever to slide through, but I’m coming around to the idea of just leaving it off as it’s not worth the bother.
Online
The question really is whether to leave the carbine “as found”, or fix the sight to restore it to original fit and function. If that answer to that is “yes”, then the next question is whether to spend the extra $50 or so to restore the missing post/ring.
John,
If the gun feeds, fires, and shoots with some accuracy then spend the money. Your gun has character, this is not a lot to spend on a fun gun. T/R
John D. said
I have no issue with shipping and receiving. I have a 03 FFL, but USPS or UPS has never asked any questions.
Frankly, I’m leaning towards enjoying it as found or just ordering the sight repair kit for $125. Bob said he mills a space in the saddle ring mount for the lever to slide through, but I’m coming around to the idea of just leaving it off as it’s not worth the bother.
If it requires that mod, seems to me another reason to leave it as is. Without going into the whole history of the subject, the correct name for such rings (in use since the flintlock period) is SLING ring. I really don’t know what Win called them, as they aren’t mentioned in the descriptions of carbines, & the catalog parts lists don’t include them; does anyone have a factory parts list that does name them?
John D. said
clarence said
John D. said
I wasn’t really considering resale value, as I seldom sell a gun – much less a Winchester lever gun. 🙂 However, I am on the fence with this one.
The breakdown was thus:
$125 for the necessary sight parts, as my sight is missing enough that it was more cost effective to buy the mounting kit rather than the individual missing bits.
$30 for the saddle ring and post installed. So – $155, plus shipping if I wanted him to assemble it for me.
The question really is whether to leave the carbine “as found”, or fix the sight to restore it to original fit and function. If that answer to that is “yes”, then the next question is whether to spend the extra $50 or so to restore the missing post/ring.
Are you going to be able to send & receive it without going through an FFL? Shouldn’t be necessary for repair work, but now shippers make the rules & they all HATE guns, even though they make money shipping them. Shipping alone, with ins., may run you close to $100, but of course I’m guessing. I can’t see how the ring would not interfere with the sight, but Bob knows more than I about that. Rubbing down, or “aging,” the blue on the lever would not be difficult, but if you’ve never done it before, might be best to have Bob do it. My attitude about the ring itself I need not repeat, but all the chatter about “resale” makes me slightly nauseous.
I have no issue with shipping and receiving. I have a 03 FFL, but USPS or UPS has never asked any questions.
Frankly, I’m leaning towards enjoying it as found or just ordering the sight repair kit for $125. Bob said he mills a space in the saddle ring mount for the lever to slide through, but I’m coming around to the idea of just leaving it off as it’s not worth the bother.
I’ve seen a few 1894 carbines with the Lyman 21 and with the saddle ring installed. I remember actually seeing one that lettered with both. Here’s one on Gunbroker, but outside the letterable range. Not sure of it’s practicality but it looks good in my opinion.
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/1011758843
Don
deerhunter said
John D. said
clarence said
John D. said
I wasn’t really considering resale value, as I seldom sell a gun – much less a Winchester lever gun. 🙂 However, I am on the fence with this one.
The breakdown was thus:
$125 for the necessary sight parts, as my sight is missing enough that it was more cost effective to buy the mounting kit rather than the individual missing bits.
$30 for the saddle ring and post installed. So – $155, plus shipping if I wanted him to assemble it for me.
The question really is whether to leave the carbine “as found”, or fix the sight to restore it to original fit and function. If that answer to that is “yes”, then the next question is whether to spend the extra $50 or so to restore the missing post/ring.
Are you going to be able to send & receive it without going through an FFL? Shouldn’t be necessary for repair work, but now shippers make the rules & they all HATE guns, even though they make money shipping them. Shipping alone, with ins., may run you close to $100, but of course I’m guessing. I can’t see how the ring would not interfere with the sight, but Bob knows more than I about that. Rubbing down, or “aging,” the blue on the lever would not be difficult, but if you’ve never done it before, might be best to have Bob do it. My attitude about the ring itself I need not repeat, but all the chatter about “resale” makes me slightly nauseous.
I have no issue with shipping and receiving. I have a 03 FFL, but USPS or UPS has never asked any questions.
Frankly, I’m leaning towards enjoying it as found or just ordering the sight repair kit for $125. Bob said he mills a space in the saddle ring mount for the lever to slide through, but I’m coming around to the idea of just leaving it off as it’s not worth the bother.
I’ve seen a few 1894 carbines with the Lyman 21 and with the saddle ring installed. I remember actually seeing one that lettered with both. Here’s one on Gunbroker, but outside the letterable range. Not sure of it’s practicality but it looks good in my opinion.
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/1011758843
Don
I’ll bet the letter didn’t say, “saddle ring.”
steve004 said
deerhunter said
John D. said
clarence said
John D. said
I wasn’t really considering resale value, as I seldom sell a gun – much less a Winchester lever gun. 🙂 However, I am on the fence with this one.
The breakdown was thus:
$125 for the necessary sight parts, as my sight is missing enough that it was more cost effective to buy the mounting kit rather than the individual missing bits.
$30 for the saddle ring and post installed. So – $155, plus shipping if I wanted him to assemble it for me.
The question really is whether to leave the carbine “as found”, or fix the sight to restore it to original fit and function. If that answer to that is “yes”, then the next question is whether to spend the extra $50 or so to restore the missing post/ring.
Are you going to be able to send & receive it without going through an FFL? Shouldn’t be necessary for repair work, but now shippers make the rules & they all HATE guns, even though they make money shipping them. Shipping alone, with ins., may run you close to $100, but of course I’m guessing. I can’t see how the ring would not interfere with the sight, but Bob knows more than I about that. Rubbing down, or “aging,” the blue on the lever would not be difficult, but if you’ve never done it before, might be best to have Bob do it. My attitude about the ring itself I need not repeat, but all the chatter about “resale” makes me slightly nauseous.
I have no issue with shipping and receiving. I have a 03 FFL, but USPS or UPS has never asked any questions.
Frankly, I’m leaning towards enjoying it as found or just ordering the sight repair kit for $125. Bob said he mills a space in the saddle ring mount for the lever to slide through, but I’m coming around to the idea of just leaving it off as it’s not worth the bother.
I’ve seen a few 1894 carbines with the Lyman 21 and with the saddle ring installed. I remember actually seeing one that lettered with both. Here’s one on Gunbroker, but outside the letterable range. Not sure of it’s practicality but it looks good in my opinion.
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/1011758843
Don
I’ll bet the letter didn’t say, “saddle ring.”
They never do… the sling ring was standard. If the sling ring was omitted, the ledger records would state exactly that.
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
deerhunter said
I’ve seen a few 1894 carbines with the Lyman 21 and with the saddle ring installed. I remember actually seeing one that lettered with both. Here’s one on Gunbroker, but outside the letterable range. Not sure of it’s practicality but it looks good in my opinion.
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/1011758843
Don
Don,
Thanks for the link!
Very interesting, and looks kinda cool. As Bert has already stated, mine did not leave the factory with the Lyman 21 installed, and even if it did my serial number is not low enough to letter as such.
In any case, I took it for a spin yesterday and it is a shooter. And the more I look at and fondle it, the more enamored of it I get. I’ve pretty much made up my mind to make the sight whole and fully functional again, but undecided on the sling ring. I’m in no hurry, I’ll fool with it some and see what reveals itself to me in my dreams. 😀
Bert H. said
steve004 said
deerhunter said
John D. said
clarence said
John D. said
I wasn’t really considering resale value, as I seldom sell a gun – much less a Winchester lever gun. 🙂 However, I am on the fence with this one.
The breakdown was thus:
$125 for the necessary sight parts, as my sight is missing enough that it was more cost effective to buy the mounting kit rather than the individual missing bits.
$30 for the saddle ring and post installed. So – $155, plus shipping if I wanted him to assemble it for me.
The question really is whether to leave the carbine “as found”, or fix the sight to restore it to original fit and function. If that answer to that is “yes”, then the next question is whether to spend the extra $50 or so to restore the missing post/ring.
Are you going to be able to send & receive it without going through an FFL? Shouldn’t be necessary for repair work, but now shippers make the rules & they all HATE guns, even though they make money shipping them. Shipping alone, with ins., may run you close to $100, but of course I’m guessing. I can’t see how the ring would not interfere with the sight, but Bob knows more than I about that. Rubbing down, or “aging,” the blue on the lever would not be difficult, but if you’ve never done it before, might be best to have Bob do it. My attitude about the ring itself I need not repeat, but all the chatter about “resale” makes me slightly nauseous.
I have no issue with shipping and receiving. I have a 03 FFL, but USPS or UPS has never asked any questions.
Frankly, I’m leaning towards enjoying it as found or just ordering the sight repair kit for $125. Bob said he mills a space in the saddle ring mount for the lever to slide through, but I’m coming around to the idea of just leaving it off as it’s not worth the bother.
I’ve seen a few 1894 carbines with the Lyman 21 and with the saddle ring installed. I remember actually seeing one that lettered with both. Here’s one on Gunbroker, but outside the letterable range. Not sure of it’s practicality but it looks good in my opinion.
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/1011758843
Don
I’ll bet the letter didn’t say, “saddle ring.”
They never do… the sling ring was standard. If the sling ring was omitted, the ledger records would state exactly that.
Correct. It lettered with the Lyman 21 and the sling ring was not omitted on the letter. Tom Vala had this carbine on his table for awhile.
Don
November 7, 2015
Offline
John D. said
deerhunter said
I’ve seen a few 1894 carbines with the Lyman 21 and with the saddle ring installed. I remember actually seeing one that lettered with both. Here’s one on Gunbroker, but outside the letterable range. Not sure of it’s practicality but it looks good in my opinion.
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/1011758843
Don
Don,
Thanks for the link!
Very interesting, and looks kinda cool. As Bert has already stated, mine did not leave the factory with the Lyman 21 installed, and even if it did my serial number is not low enough to letter as such.
In any case, I took it for a spin yesterday and it is a shooter. And the more I look at and fondle it, the more enamored of it I get. I’ve pretty much made up my mind to make the sight whole and fully functional again, but undecided on the sling ring. I’m in no hurry, I’ll fool with it some and see what reveals itself to me in my dreams. 😀
Good call, John. We’re just offering observations, opinions and suggestions. Do whatever makes you happy; it’s your gun, your money, your call. I’m glad it turned out to be a shooter!
Mike
TXGunNut said
John D. said
deerhunter said
I’ve seen a few 1894 carbines with the Lyman 21 and with the saddle ring installed. I remember actually seeing one that lettered with both. Here’s one on Gunbroker, but outside the letterable range. Not sure of it’s practicality but it looks good in my opinion.
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/1011758843
Don
Don,
Thanks for the link!
Very interesting, and looks kinda cool. As Bert has already stated, mine did not leave the factory with the Lyman 21 installed, and even if it did my serial number is not low enough to letter as such.
In any case, I took it for a spin yesterday and it is a shooter. And the more I look at and fondle it, the more enamored of it I get. I’ve pretty much made up my mind to make the sight whole and fully functional again, but undecided on the sling ring. I’m in no hurry, I’ll fool with it some and see what reveals itself to me in my dreams. 😀
Good call, John. We’re just offering observations, opinions and suggestions. Do whatever makes you happy; it’s your gun, your money, your call. I’m glad it turned out to be a shooter!
Mike
I agree – that link to he half magazine .32 Special Carbine with the Lyman No. 21 AND the sling ring was most interesting. I liked that carbine.
I also agree with Mike – we’re just offering our observations and opinions etc. A person is completely free to to whatever they want – as it should be. I enjoy being on the receiving end of these discussions as I am interested in the perspective of others. Regarding the remounting of a sling ring on this carbine, I am torn. For sure, I would have the correct sight parts installed. It sounds like Bob would do a fine job. But the sling ring… with the substantial size and associated hardware of the Lyman No. 21, the receiver side is fairly cluttered. The ring adds to the clutter. On the other hand (for me) the ring adds some charm and pizzazz. Yes, it serves no purpose, but lots of decorative things have no purpose. I’ll probably drop several notches in Clarence’s eyes, but I think were it mine, I’d send the extra money to Bob for the ring 
steve004 said
TXGunNut said
John D. said
deerhunter said
I’ve seen a few 1894 carbines with the Lyman 21 and with the saddle ring installed. I remember actually seeing one that lettered with both. Here’s one on Gunbroker, but outside the letterable range. Not sure of it’s practicality but it looks good in my opinion.
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/1011758843
Don
Don,
Thanks for the link!
Very interesting, and looks kinda cool. As Bert has already stated, mine did not leave the factory with the Lyman 21 installed, and even if it did my serial number is not low enough to letter as such.
In any case, I took it for a spin yesterday and it is a shooter. And the more I look at and fondle it, the more enamored of it I get. I’ve pretty much made up my mind to make the sight whole and fully functional again, but undecided on the sling ring. I’m in no hurry, I’ll fool with it some and see what reveals itself to me in my dreams. 😀
Good call, John. We’re just offering observations, opinions and suggestions. Do whatever makes you happy; it’s your gun, your money, your call. I’m glad it turned out to be a shooter!
Mike
I agree – that link to he half magazine .32 Special Carbine with the Lyman No. 21 AND the sling ring was most interesting. I liked that carbine.
I also agree with Mike – we’re just offering our observations and opinions etc. A person is completely free to to whatever they want – as it should be. I enjoy being on the receiving end of these discussions as I am interested in the perspective of others. Regarding the remounting of a sling ring on this carbine, I am torn. For sure, I would have the correct sight parts installed. It sounds like Bob would do a fine job. But the sling ring… with the substantial size and associated hardware of the Lyman No. 21, the receiver side is fairly cluttered. The ring adds to the clutter. On the other hand (for me) the ring adds some charm and pizzazz. Yes, it serves no purpose, but lots of decorative things have no purpose. I’ll probably drop several notches in Clarence’s eyes, but I think were it mine, I’d send the extra money to Bob for the ring
If it were mine, I would also elect to have the ring installed. I would also keep the filler screw so I would have the option of removing the ring if I so desired. Once the ring is on it doesn’t have to be permanent.
Don
deerhunter said
If it were mine, I would also elect to have the ring installed. I would also keep the filler screw so I would have the option of removing the ring if I so desired. Once the ring is on it doesn’t have to be permanent.
Don
Don,
I’m getting the sight made right for sure, and am still considering the ring.
I very much appreciate every one taking the time to give their observations and opinions, that’s why I posted! Honestly, the more I fool with this carbine, the more I like it. It has a hundred years of HARD caked, baked on crud, so I’m carefully soaking that and carding it off bit by bit. The magazine tube was coated with crud inside and out, but that has been addressed. I have not pulled the action apart yet, but that will get done when I have sufficient time to devote to the round trip disassembly/reassembly.
I was able to drive out the DIY front band repair, and discovered that the screw threads are still very much viable. All I need to do to make that right is to find a front band screw. If anyone has one they’d like to sell, let me know…. otherwise I can source it from any one of the usual places. I have several rear sight blanks, so I can make that look “right”, and the only other issue is the Lyman #21 missing parts.
Here’s a question – does anyone know offhand what the thread pitch is on that front band screw? Looks like a size 6, but not sure about the thread. I have a barrel ban screw from a 94/22 that is the right size, but too long. I thought maybe about buying the die, threading it to the right spot, and cutting it down to the correct length.
John D. said
Also – I see that it is adjustable for windage, but for the life of me can’t figure out how to make the adjustment.
Quoting myself – as I got an answer to the windage adjustment question. According to my recently acquired “Old Gunsights” book, Lyman instructions are to whack the peep with a mallet to adjust windage. 🙂
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