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Ok guys I am looking for a Winchester rifle in 25-20, but I thought I would check out the availability of reloading supplies. I can’t seam to be able to find 25-20 brass, and I see there is some sort of difference between 25-20 single shot vrs 25-20 Winchester. They claim they are not interchangeable. So do any of you know where brass can be had for these?
Steve
Remington made a run of 25-20 last year so you can buy the factory cartridges and then reload them. Or, you can resize 35-20 brass into 25-20. Those are the only current options for new brass. Hopefully Winchester, Remington or one of the cowboy brass companies will make another run of it soon.
i am in the same boat and have been waiting 1.5 years so hopefully it will be soon…….
Regards,
WACA Life Member #6284 - Specializing in Pre-64 Winchester .22 Rimfire
I have a Model 53 in .25-20.Nice little rifle to shoot, that I load for.I still have some Winchester.25-20 new cases that I bought a long time ago.At the last few gun shows I have been ,I have seen new Remington .25-20 cases for sale.Keep an eye open at gun shows,some should turn up sooner or later.
The .25-20 Winchester and .25-20 single shot are not interchangeable.
Anyone who thinks 25-20 WCF is hard to find should search for 25-20 SS. Years ago I bought an early ’85 clearly marked .25 WCF at a show, but when I got it home found to my dismay that a .25 WCF cartridge was too large to enter the chamber! Turned out it was .25-20 SS, produced before WRA developed their repeater cartridge for the ’92.
Right now I’ve got a 25-20 SS that a sub-moron obviously tried to re-chamber for 25 WCF with a drill bit, but succeeded only in roughing up the chamber so much that cases have to be knocked out with a rod. Can’t be re-chambered properly for 25 WCF because the bullet would have too long a jump to reach the rifling.
clarence said
Anyone who thinks 25-20 WCF is hard to find should search for 25-20 SS. Years ago I bought an early ’85 clearly marked .25 WCF at a show, but when I got it home found to my dismay that a .25 WCF cartridge was too large to enter the chamber! Turned out it was .25-20 SS, produced before WRA developed their repeater cartridge for the ’92.Right now I’ve got a 25-20 SS that a sub-moron obviously tried to re-chamber for 25 WCF with a drill bit, but succeeded only in roughing up the chamber so much that cases have to be knocked out with a rod. Can’t be re-chambered properly for 25 WCF because the bullet would have too long a jump to reach the rifling.
Clarence,
Many years ago I wrote a brief article about the Model 1885 rifles chambered for the 25-20 Single Shot cartridge, and that all of the early rifles in that cartridge were marked “25 W.C.F.”
Winchester used three different caliber markings to cover the two uniquely different cartridges. In all cases, the 25-20 repeater cartridge was marked “25-20 W.C.F.” The 25-20 Single Shot was marked “25 W.C.F.” from 1890 through early 1895, and then was changed to “25-20 S.S.” through the end of production. The 25-20 S.S. was by a very large margin the more common of the two.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Bert H. said
Clarence,
Many years ago I wrote a brief article about the Model 1885 rifles chambered for the 25-20 Single Shot cartridge, and that all of the early rifles in that cartridge were marked “25 W.C.F.”
Winchester used three different caliber markings to cover the two uniquely different cartridges. In all cases, the 25-20 repeater cartridge was marked “25-20 W.C.F.” The 25-20 Single Shot was marked “25 W.C.F.” from 1890 through early 1895, and then was changed to “25-20 S.S.” through the end of production. The 25-20 S.S. was by a very large margin the more common of the two.
Bert
Sure wish I’d known this before buying that ’85, which I traded as quickly as I could. Presently, good quality 25-20 SS cases are being produced by the Jamison company, but when I acquired that gun 40 yrs ago, the best you could do was scrounge for very old brass.
It was well known at the time that Stevens had introduced and promoted the 25-20 SS, so it’s hard to understand why WRA would confuse the issue with the “WCF” marking.
clarence said
It was well known at the time that Stevens had introduced and promoted the 25-20 SS, so it’s hard to understand why WRA would confuse the issue with the “WCF” marking.
Clarence,
Stevens did not invent, introduce, or own the 25-20 Single Shot cartridge. The 25-20 S.S. was created as a wildcat cartridge in the year 1882 by J. Francis Rabbeth. Stevens (just like Winchester) adopted it for their Stevens Ideal series of rifles, which were introduced in 1893… 3-years after Winchester first chambered their Model 1885 Single Shot rifle for it. Neither company could technically call it their own.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Bert H. said
Clarence,
Stevens did not invent, introduce, or own the 25-20 Single Shot cartridge. The 25-20 S.S. was created as a wildcat cartridge in the year 1882 by J. Francis Rabbeth. Stevens (just like Winchester) adopted it for their Stevens Ideal series of rifles, which were introduced in 1893… 3-years after Winchester first chambered their Model 1885 Single Shot rifle for it. Neither company could technically call it their own.
Bert
I knew it was Rabbeth’s design, which was why I said “introduced” rather than “invented.” But in their catalog description of the cartridge, Stevens did claim they had “first introduced” it, and even called it the “.25-20 Stevens”! Are you sure it was never chambered in the tip-up series, which preceded the Ideals? That I’m going to look into myself right away, but if WRA was the first maker to offer a rifle chambered for it, then I concede it was entirely legit to call it .25-20 WCF, or anything else they pleased. Pretty damned unfair that the obvious as well as correct name for it–“Rabbeth”–was ignored by both companies!
Just looked through several of James Grant’s books, but found nothing specific about the introduction of this cartridge; there’s a photo of one Stevens Tip Up chambered for it, but he says no more about it than that it was a special-order model.
In 100 Years…, Gerald Kelver said, after describing Rabbeth’s experimental work, “Stevens quickly adopted the new cartridge,” which seems to imply–inaccurately, perhaps!–that Stevens had done so first. Actually, the first chambered barrel Rabbeth obtained for himself was made by Remington!
In the Ideal Handbook, for what it’s worth, the .257″ / 86 g. bullet that’s most common in factory loadings is called “the regular old standard .25-20 Stevens.”
Production of the Tip-Up rifles continued well after the Ideal (No. 44 & 44½) were introduced. That stated, I believe that the answer will come from which company added it to their ammo production list first. I do not have any of the old Stevens catalogs, but I do have most of the Winchester catalogs. It is certainly possible that Stevens may have beat Winchester to the punch, but if they did, it wasn’t by much.
I do find it interesting that Stevens called it the “25-20 Stevens” and Winchester the “25 W.C.F.” instead of simply calling it the “25-20”.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Bert H. said
Production of the Tip-Up rifles continued well after the Ideal (No. 44 & 44½) were introduced…
Bert
Actually, Bert, Grant opines that production ended within a year after the 44 hit the market. And for about a year before that, the extremely rare Stevens Side-Plate model (which has a pat. date of 1885 on the brl that no one, inc. Grant, has been able to track down) was in production, so anyone who STILL wanted a Tip Up after those models became available had a screw loose!
Another possible way to narrow down the introduction date might be to search The Field and Forest & Stream beginning in 1882 to see if either company was plugging their “new cartridge.”
I used Flayderman’s, and he opines that the Tip-Up Rifles were discontinued in 1895, two years after the Ideal Rifles were introduced. In regards to the 25-20 Stevens chambering, I have only found them in the Ideal Rifles.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
I have no means for searching The Field, but luckily Harvey Donaldson did, and he reports in Yours Truly the contents of several Rabbeth letters he found in some 1884 issues he owned. These relate Rabbeth’s experiments with the same .32 Extra Long case necked down to .28, which led to further experiments with .25 bullets, and ultimately the .25-20 SS. Because Remington, although providing him with his first .25 brl, had no interest in marketing the cartridge, Maynard did, and, he says, “at once adapted the Maynard rifle [M. 1882] to take this new case.” If all Harve’s info was derived from these Rabbeth letters (which isn’t absolutely clear), his account seems reliable to me.
I’d also trust this date of 1884 over Barne’s date of 1882; everybody makes mistakes.
Bert H. said
I used Flayderman’s, and he opines that the Tip-Up Rifles were discontinued in 1895, two years after the Ideal Rifles were introduced. In regards to the 25-20 Stevens chambering, I have only found them in the Ideal Rifles.
Bert
’95 seems about right, if the 44 came along in ’94. My 1st ed. of Flayderman doesn’t mention Side Plate models, which preceded the 44 by no more than a year Grant thinks, accounting for their rarity today.
clarence said
I have no means for searching The Field, but luckily Harvey Donaldson did, and he reports in Yours Truly the contents of several Rabbeth letters he found in some 1884 issues he owned. These relate Rabbeth’s experiments with the same .32 Extra Long case necked down to .28, which led to further experiments with .25 bullets, and ultimately the .25-20 SS. Because Remington, although providing him with his first .25 brl, had no interest in marketing the cartridge, Maynard did, and, he says, “at once adapted the Maynard rifle [M. 1882] to take this new case.” If all Harve’s info was derived from these Rabbeth letters (which isn’t absolutely clear), his account seems reliable to me.I’d also trust this date of 1884 over Barne’s date of 1882; everybody makes mistakes.
Clarence,
Great information! I agree with trusting the 1884 date as well.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Uh-oh! This is new information to me.
At the Reno Show in Aug., 2003 I found an 1885 L.W. Special Sporting rifle marked “25 W.C.F.”, ser. #60131.
I double checked the chamber to make sure the ’92 repeater 25-20 would chamber and it did. So I bought it.
The fired cases come out great (better than some of my 1892s) and I can see no evidence of re-chambering or re-lining.
Am I missing something? Did I get duped?
The Cody Letter also says “25 W.C.F.”.
Roger
Roger Baker said
Uh-oh! This is new information to me.At the Reno Show in Aug., 2003 I found an 1885 L.W. Special Sporting rifle marked “25 W.C.F.”, ser. #60131.
I double checked the chamber to make sure the ’92 repeater 25-20 would chamber and it did. So I bought it.
The fired cases come out great (better than some of my 1892s) and I can see no evidence of re-chambering or re-lining.
Am I missing something? Did I get duped?
The Cody Letter also says “25 W.C.F.”.
Roger
Roger,
Unfortunately, you got duped. As your low-wall Special Sporting Rifle was originally manufactured, it was a 25-20 Single Shot. It was received in the warehouse on March 9th, 1893… approximately 2-years before Winchester made the first Model 1892s in the 25-20 WCF (repeater) cartridge.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Roger Baker said
Am I missing something?
Roger
Yes–the aggravation of loading for the 25-20 SS cartridge, if you bought it with a serious intention of shooting it, which it sounds like maybe you did. Not that I’m downplaying the disappointment of paying (probably) a significant price for what was presented as an unaltered gun, but it’s a privilege to own any Special Sporting Rifle.
November 7, 2015
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Very interesting thread but I think I missed something. Was the earlier cartridge always called “Single Shot” or was that added for clarification after the repeater cartridge was introduced?
TXGunNut said
Was the earlier cartridge always called “Single Shot” or was that added for clarification after the repeater cartridge was introduced?
The latter, I suspect. Previous to that, it seems to have been called merely .25-20 in Ideal #5, or .25-20 Stevens by (naturally) Stevens, or .25 WCF by (naturally) WRA. Though (as asserted by Donaldson) it was first chambered by Maynard in ’84, it still had not made it into the ’85 Maynard catalog, which is the only one I have. Would be informative to know what Maynard called it.
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