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September 22, 2011
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So, what’s the verdict on this mid 1920s Winchester Model 1895 rifle? I think both metal and wood are refinished.
1. The barrel proofmarks appears buffed and blued. Proofmarks were applied after the surfaces were blued so they should be “in the white”.
2. Some lettering in various places is weak. Not markedly so, but enough to make me suspect polishing and rebluing.
3. An enlarged photograph shows polishing marks on the barrel.
4. The stock is more flush with the buttplate than I would expect. Also, when enlarged, the wood finish looks sanded and refinished.
5. For a rifle this “nice”, how do you explain the loss of small slivers of wood at the corners of the buttstock near the tang?
6. The tone of the bluing looks muted and reblued, not the desirable polished blue finish one would expect.
7. The hue of the magazine and frame is inconsistent enough to suggest non factory work.
8. Possibly some dishing around screws.
9. The hammer edges look soft, as if buffed.
10. Edges of the lever are soft.
11. And, the front sight is most definitely replaced.
What do y’all think?
April 15, 2005
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The wood has positively been lightly sanded and refinished. I am on the fence for the steel.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
September 22, 2011
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Bert H. said
The wood has positively been lightly sanded and refinished. I am on the fence for the steel.
Bert
The lever and hammer contain edges that should definitely not be that rounded, wouldn’t you agree? That alone makes one question “what else is wrong?”
September 22, 2011
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I decided to see if this rifle had turned up elsewhere, and it was offered at Wards 2 years ago and I even created a thread about it! I have no recollection of the thread or the rifle, LOL!🤣
It’s Don Grove’s leftover junk!
It sold at Amoskeag in 2023 as well.
https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-rifles/superb-model-1895-rifle/
And now at Ward’s again…
April 30, 2023
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I’m no 1895 expert but to me, that “monochrome” look is always the dead giveaway. The hammer in that one rear view also looks almost painted or cerakoted, not blued.
December 9, 2002
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Ian,
In looking at these pictures it can sometimes make it a little harder to actually determine if a rifle or firearm such as this one, has been redone. IMHO!
With that said, and looking at it more than once and chewing on it with more facts and opinions coming out, on this 1895, and some history on it, I will give my two cents here also.
It’s obvious the rifle was taken apart and cleaned up a long time ago, as no old grease or accumulated grime is in any of the cracks, or crevices.
Many of us are aware of the late Don Grove’s collection and what he was selling. This one was definitely re worked years ago, and as the members pointed out, the wood is pretty obvious with it’s more than just handling marks on it, as the wood being sanded and rounded corners in places that shouldn’t be rounded being very obvious. The angled marks/scratches in the wrist that we’re finished over are always disturbing and a tell tale sign to me. The wood to metal fit at the rear of the receiver, at the wrist is one of the first places we seem to notice, as the lack of fit is very obvious. Looking at the lower tang, and the three different colored screws, as that alone doesn’t really signify a lot for us as collectors, mainly because screws can be repaired and touched up, giving a false sense of appearance to the rifle, in our minds upon evaluation. A couple members have said and commented on the metal, as it can be hard to determine, from the pics. A few different angles and pictures sure makes it suspecting. IMO!
It would require handling to make an honest evaluation! IMO!
So to answer you’re original question, my answer is, YES!
Caveat Emperor!!!
Tony
November 19, 2006
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Wood and metal redone.
April 30, 2023
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For any in the know, is that caliber stamp of the correct font/location/style for these?
December 9, 2002
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steve004 said
Wood and metal redone.
Steve,
You say that with certainty! I’m confident in you’re reply!
Jeremy P said
For any in the know, is that caliber stamp of the correct font/location/style for these?
As far as I can tell for the “Nickle steel Barrel’, and with that serial number verifying it’s year and mfg. time period of 1924.
Tony
November 19, 2006
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Anthony said
steve004 said
Wood and metal redone.
Steve,
You say that with certainty! I’m confident in you’re reply!
Jeremy P said
For any in the know, is that caliber stamp of the correct font/location/style for these?
As far as I can tell for the “Nickle steel Barrel’, and with that serial number verifying it’s year and mfg. time period of 1924.
Tony
Well, I didn’t do the refinishing personally… so I can’t say with that level of confidence….
November 7, 2015
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For me it’s what I’m NOT seeing. With the handling marks on the wood and the wear on the Lyman receiver sight I expect to see some wear on the high spots and edges of the receiver and I’m not seeing them. As pointed out above the gun has been apart and the wood finish freshened up a bit. Somebody did a good job refinishing the metal but for me it doesn’t pass the “does it match?” test. Screws are a bit too nice with none of the gunk we like to see on an honest gun. Nice work. Nice pics. I’m wondering why we’re not seeing the top of the receiver.
Mike
September 29, 1993
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Just to add some content to the discussion: Anthoney referenced “the late Don Grove’s collection and what he was selling”. When I first met Don Grove about 30 years ago, I was impressed by the size of his offerings at the major gun shows and asked him “What do you collect”? His answer was “My collection is on my tables” which was usually at least four or five 8 footers. Don was not a collector. He was in it for profit only!
WACA Life Benefactor Member
NRA Life Member
November 19, 2006
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Just snapped these photos a couple minutes ago for comparison. Why they ended up flipped is beyond me.
December 9, 2002
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Rick Hill said
Just to add some content to the discussion: Anthony referenced “the late Don Grove’s collection and what he was selling”. When I first met Don Grove about 30 years ago, I was impressed by the size of his offerings at the major gun shows and asked him “What do you collect”? His answer was “My collection is on my tables” which was usually at least four or five 8 footers. Don was not a collector. He was in it for profit only!
Rick,
I had spoken with him at different shows years ago also, but never bought anything from him. You’re point is well taken on him not being a collector. Which really explains things to me.
Steve,
I think maybe the size of the picture flips them, as I’ve been told to use a smaller size picture, hence less bytes! I still struggle with it.
You’re 95, which is in nice shape, shows how the sharp corners wear first.
Tony
August 27, 2014
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The gun just looks off…
“If you can’t convince them, confuse them”
President Harry S. Truman
November 19, 2006
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Anthony said
Rick Hill said
Just to add some content to the discussion: Anthony referenced “the late Don Grove’s collection and what he was selling”. When I first met Don Grove about 30 years ago, I was impressed by the size of his offerings at the major gun shows and asked him “What do you collect”? His answer was “My collection is on my tables” which was usually at least four or five 8 footers. Don was not a collector. He was in it for profit only!
Rick,
I had spoken with him at different shows years ago also, but never bought anything from him. You’re point is well taken on him not being a collector. Which really explains things to me.
Steve,
I think maybe the size of the picture flips them, as I’ve been told to use a smaller size picture, hence less bytes! I still struggle with it.
You’re 95, which is in nice shape, shows how the sharp corners wear first.
Tony
Tony –
Exactly. The rifle Ian posted – it was used to the point the wood needed to be refinished – and it still looks kind of distressed. Yet there would be no sharp corner wear on the metal?
Regarding Don Grove, I followed his guns for decades. Actually scores of years. He had a lot of pieces that were purported to be original. Some, I didn’t have my doubts about. But some…
December 9, 2024
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I have some older 95’s that the hammers appear to be case hardened. Were they blued in this era? Or am I mistaken about the CCH?
Speaking of modified Model 1895’s, I am interested in Lot 3053 in the upcoming Rock Island auction. It is Serial No 1949, a Flatside musket listed with a Stevens-Pope replacement barrel. Can anyone tell me anything about Stevens-Pope replacement barrels and why this rifle may have been re barreled in this manner?
March 31, 2009
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[email protected] said
Speaking of modified Model 1895’s, I am interested in Lot 3053 in the upcoming Rock Island auction. It is Serial No 1949, a Flatside musket listed with a Stevens-Pope replacement barrel. Can anyone tell me anything about Stevens-Pope replacement barrels and why this rifle may have been re barreled in this manner?
Pope was the premier target barrel maker in the late 1890’s and early 1900’s. He worked for Stevens from about 1901 to 1906. Target rifles usually have longer barrels.
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