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March 31, 2009
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Bert H. said
I did some digging through the Single Shot records, and the first two rifles manufactured for the 30 U.S. (30-40) cartridge were serial numbers 67205 & 67218 both received in the warehouse on 5/22/1894… one full year before the first Model 1894 was made in 30 WCF.
Bert
I went through my book on the Krag Military rifles and the first Krag Model 1892’s were delivered in early October 1894. So the 1885 was the first rifle to load the 30-40?
April 15, 2005
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Chuck said
Bert H. said
I did some digging through the Single Shot records, and the first two rifles manufactured for the 30 U.S. (30-40) cartridge were serial numbers 67205 & 67218 both received in the warehouse on 5/22/1894… one full year before the first Model 1894 was made in 30 WCF.
Bert
I went through my book on the Krag Military rifles and the first Krag Model 1892’s were delivered in early October 1894. So the 1885 was the first rifle to load the 30-40?
Apparently so. Winchester actually began cartridge & ballistic development for what eventually became the 30 U.S. sometime in late 1891.
This is as copy of the ledger record that I acquired 20-years ago while researching the Single Shot cartridge production;
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
March 31, 2009
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Yes, as I said in Post 35, Winchester had the round figured out in Jan of 92.
April 15, 2005
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Chuck said
Yes, as I said in Post 35, Winchester had the round figured out in Jan of 92.
I missed reading that post… but yes, Winchester did all of the early work for the U.S. Government on the development of the 30-40 Krag cartridge. Undoubtedly, they used a Single Shot (high-wall) barreled action for the testing.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
March 31, 2009
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Bert, please send me a copy of that ledger page so I can print it out. My very smart but stubborn friend says that Frankford Arsenal did the development on the 30-40. He is absolutely correct when it comes to the rifle. He also wrote the Krag book I referenced. Some way or another one reference is wrong? With the news article I have and your ledger page I want him to explain to me how Winchester was loading and chambering a 30 Gov before the Military did.
April 15, 2005
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Chuck said
Bert, please send me a copy of that ledger page so I can print it out. My very smart but stubborn friend says that Frankford Arsenal did the development on the 30-40. He is absolutely correct when it comes to the rifle. He also wrote the Krag book I referenced. Some way or another one reference is wrong? With the news article I have and your ledger page I want him to explain to me how Winchester was loading and chambering a 30 Gov before the Military did.
Will do, and I suspect that he will not be able to explain it…
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
March 31, 2009
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Bert H. said
Chuck said
Yes, as I said in Post 35, Winchester had the round figured out in Jan of 92.
I missed reading that post… but yes, Winchester did all of the early work for the U.S. Government on the development of the 30-40 Krag cartridge. Undoubtedly, they used a Single Shot (high-wall) barreled action for the testing.
Bert
The problem is that I can’t find any info on the part Winchester played when many Military cartridges were developed. There is a lot of info on the guns but hardly anything on the ammunition.
April 15, 2005
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Chuck said
Bert H. said
Chuck said
Yes, as I said in Post 35, Winchester had the round figured out in Jan of 92.
I missed reading that post… but yes, Winchester did all of the early work for the U.S. Government on the development of the 30-40 Krag cartridge. Undoubtedly, they used a Single Shot (high-wall) barreled action for the testing.
Bert
The problem is that I can’t find any info on the part Winchester played when many Military cartridges were developed. There is a lot of info on the guns but hardly anything on the ammunition.
Try sending Brad Dunbar a PM… he may have some insight (information) from the research for the Model 1895 book and his close association with Dan Shuey.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
March 31, 2009
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Brad and I have talked some but not on this exact issue. He gave me some info on the 95 cartridges. If you have something that could back this up I’d like to see it. I have not seen anything that goes into Winchester’s involvement with the development or the use of the highwall for any of the cartridges.
April 15, 2005
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Chuck said
Brad and I have talked some but not on this exact issue. He gave me some info on the 95 cartridges. If you have something that could back this up I’d like to see it. I have not seen anything that goes into Winchester’s involvement with the development or the use of the highwall for any of the cartridges.
Chuck,
Winchester almost exclusively used high-wall actions to test and develop new cartridges for several decades. Brad has a listing of approximately 2-dozen Single Shot serial numbers that were in the ballistics department inventory. I myself have seen and handled more than a handful of test pressure high-walls. Further, I have documented another dozen or so Single Shots purchased by the U.S. Cartridge Co. for ballistic testing purposes.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
March 31, 2009
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Chuck,
Winchester almost exclusively used high-wall actions to test and develop new cartridges for several decades. Brad has a listing of approximately 2-dozen Single Shot serial numbers that were in the ballistics department inventory. I myself have seen and handled more than a handful of test pressure high-walls. Further, I have documented another dozen or so Single Shots purchased by the U.S. Cartridge Co. for ballistic testing purposes.
Bert
I don’t doubt what you say. But I’d like something published to back it up. I’ll contact Brad and see what the data he has says. It would be nice if the calibers were listed.
May 23, 2009
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Chuck said
I don’t doubt what you say. But I’d like something published to back it up. I’ll contact Brad and see what the data he has says. It would be nice if the calibers were listed.
There is quite a bit of information that is un-published when it comes to everything Winchester did. And not all of the published information out there is correct either.
Sincerely,
Maverick
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November 7, 2015
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Chuck-
At one time I believe one of the test guns was on exhibit at CFM and of course Bert told me about seeing some of the guns. Campbell may have mentioned it in his book but it’s been awhile since I read it. Besides that, the single action is about as close as you can get to the universal receivers used by ballistics labs today. One receiver could be used for all cartridges of the same head diameter by screwing in the proper barrel and setting the headspace. A handful of actions and a stack of barrels could test several dozen cartridges. The actions were tagged and/or stamped to denote the head size. Sometimes I wonder if that explains why the Single Shot is chambered for so many different cartridges but I suppose that’s like the chicken/egg question. Wasn’t there a Collector article that mentioned them as well?
Almost all the tooling used to manufacture Winchesters was made in the Winchester factory. What better action for testing ammunition than something as strong and versatile as the Single Shot, especially when they built them?
Mike
May 23, 2009
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TXGunNut said
Chuck-
At one time I believe one of the test guns was on exhibit at CFM and of course Bert told me about seeing some of the guns. Campbell may have mentioned it in his book but it’s been awhile since I read it. Besides that, the single action is about as close as you can get to the universal receivers used by ballistics labs today. One receiver could be used for all cartridges of the same head diameter by screwing in the proper barrel and setting the headspace. A handful of actions and a stack of barrels could test several dozen cartridges. The actions were tagged and/or stamped to denote the head size. Sometimes I wonder if that explains why the Single Shot is chambered for so many different cartridges but I suppose that’s like the chicken/egg question. Wasn’t there a Collector article that mentioned them as well?
Almost all the tooling used to manufacture Winchesters was made in the Winchester factory. What better action for testing ammunition than something as strong and versatile as the Single Shot, especially when they built them?
Mike
Mike,
You’re thinking about the pendulum gun that was Dan Shuey’s that was on display at Cody. Mark Douglas picked it from the auction of his estate. They used the pendulum gun along with the Model 85 Single Shot and other methods for testing ballistics, proofing, and experimentations.
You can see a picture of Dan’s pendulum gun in this memorial for Dan.
https://winchestercollector.org/magazines/202406/8/
Dan also wrote a nice article on “Gun Testing” https://winchestercollector.org/magazines/202103/14/
Another on “proofing”. https://winchestercollector.org/magazines/201806/18/
In this article of Dan’s about the ballistic lab is shown a page about the testing of the 30 Gov’t Smokeless. https://winchestercollector.org/magazines/202001/20/
Sincerely,
Maverick
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November 7, 2015
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Maybe so. Maverick. I would have liked to see Dan’s display at the midwestern show. The gun I’m thinking about was on display before the remodel, when was Dan’s gun on display in Cody?
Mike
May 23, 2009
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Mike,
I honestly don’t know when Dan’s gun was on display at Cody for certain or not exactly for how long that is. If I recall correctly I believe it may have been on display at Cody at the time of his passing, but I can’t verify that information merely going off memeory.
Sincerely,
Maverick
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September 19, 2014
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Maverick, I think your memory is pretty much on It was suspended by wires from the ceiling in the basement gallery to the left oblique as you exited the stairway. What years I can’t say for sure tho. Tim
May 23, 2009
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Tim,
I remember Dan telling me about going to the Midwestern Show and displaying it. He said over and over he kept getting question after question about it and was repeatedly picking up the gun to show people various details on or about it. He said by the end of the show he was wore the hell out from picking the dam thing up so much (my words not his, his were even more graphic).
Sincerely,
Maverick
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September 19, 2014
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Maverick, I was at that show. Don’t recall what I displayed but was next door to him. The gun device is no lightweight! It would wear anyone out, I think! I believe he had a couple barrels other than the one on the fixture at the time, too. Tim
