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The 1895 30-03 I am looking at is made 1903 per proof house, but the sources say the 30-03 was first made in 1905. Is this another Madis error?
What is the serial number? Proofhouse.com is notoriously inaccurate.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
about #41,000. This below gun was made in 1910, why would they keep chambering the 1895 in the 03 cartridge after they started producing it in the 06 cartridge? “Ulrich Engraved Winchester 1895 Rifle .30 US 03 s/n 62448
mfg 1910 – 22” round barrel; Style 4 engraved receiver w/game scene”
Serial number 41000 was manufactured in April of 1903. Serial number 62448 was manufactured very early in the year 1908 versus 1910.
Winchester continued production of the 30-03 cartridge for at least 30-years after the 30-06 was introduced. The Models 1895, 54, and 70 were all factory chambered for the 30-03 cartridge.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Most sources give October of 1905 (Winchester’s Catalog No.72) as the introduction of .30-03 chambering in the Model 1895. However, according to information provided by Winchester to Capt. J. H. Rice of the U.S. Army Ordnance Department in January of 1907, as part of the investigations into “The Affray at Brownsville”, the first Model 1895 chambered for .30-03 to ship from New Haven left the factory on August 6, 1904, and was delivered to W. S. Brown in Pittsburgh, PA.
Captain Rice’s report can be read here, on pages 177 through 190: https://books.google.com/books?id=d2MoAAAAYAAJ&dq=inauthor%3A%22United%20States.%20Army.%20Court-martial%20(Penrose%20%3A%201907)%22&pg=RA1-PA177#v=onepage&q&f=false
Jim
Interesting. The 1895 rifle I am looking at is definately an 03 chambering and was made in 1903. It certainly looks original. Don’t know what to make of that.
If the 30-’03 was not available, is this a case of a serial number being applied in 1903 with a completed rifle received in the warehouse and shipped a few years later?
I have one rifle from the early 1900s with a span of just over six years between the serial number being applied and the date of the finished rifle going in the warehouse. I think several others here have mentioned finding similar histories. In the case of my rifle it’s a 33WCF, a caliber which was also not available in 1899.
Serial number applied on 1-17-1899
Date In: 4-4-1905
Type: rifle
Caliber: 33
Brad
Why do you believe that it is a 1922 vintage rifle? The serial number is 404895B, which makes it an August 1919 production rifle.
It is clearly marked for the ’03 cartridge. As I previously mentioned, Winchester continued producing rifles in the 30 – 03 cartridge into the late 1930s.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Bert H. said
Why do you believe that it is a 1922 vintage rifle? The serial number is 404895B, which makes it an August 1919 production rifle.
It is clearly marked for the ’03 cartridge. As I previously mentioned, Winchester continued producing rifles in the 30 – 03 cartridge into the late 1930s.
Bert
I was going by Madis numbers which indicate 1922 production. The seller states MFG 1903, so I thought he may have added a digit accidentally. Just seems strange that Winchester kept chambering the same rifle model in 03 & also 06 caliber after the 06 came out. I would have thought the military going to the 06 would convince the public that it was superior and the 03 was obsolete.
I will suggest that you use the serial number look-up table we have available here on the WACA website, as it will provide you with accurate DOM information.
The 30-03 offered a significantly different ballistic cartridge over the 30-06. The 30-03 220-grain bullet at a slower velocity versus the 30-06 150-grain bullet at a much faster velocity was apparently enough to keep to keep it in production.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Bert H. said
I will suggest that you use the serial number look-up table we have available here on the WACA website, as it will provide you with accurate DOM information.
The 30-03 offered a significantly different ballistic cartridge over the 30-06. The 30-03 220-grain bullet at a slower velocity versus the 30-06 150-grain bullet at a much faster velocity was apparently enough to keep to keep it in production.
Bert
Was the 30-06 not offered with heavy bullets early on? When did they start loading the 06 with 220 grainers? Maybe it took them a while to figure out that the 06 handled 220 grain bullets fine.
wolfbait said
Bert H. said
I will suggest that you use the serial number look-up table we have available here on the WACA website, as it will provide you with accurate DOM information.
The 30-03 offered a significantly different ballistic cartridge over the 30-06. The 30-03 220-grain bullet at a slower velocity versus the 30-06 150-grain bullet at a much faster velocity was apparently enough to keep to keep it in production.
BertWas the 30-06 not offered with heavy bullets early on? When did they start loading the 06 with 220 grainers? Maybe it took them a while to figure out that the 06 handled 220 grain bullets fine.
No, the 30-06 was not offered with heavy bullets early on, and No, the 30-06 never handled the 220-grain bullets “fine” as you stated.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Bert H. said
wolfbait said
Was the 30-06 not offered with heavy bullets early on? When did they start loading the 06 with 220 grainers? Maybe it took them a while to figure out that the 06 handled 220 grain bullets fine.
No, the 30-06 was not offered with heavy bullets early on, and No, the 30-06 never handled the 220-grain bullets “fine” as you stated.
Bert
Winchester appears to have been the first to catalog .30-06 with 220 grain bullets, beginning with their Catalog No.77 (October 1911). This catalog reports ballistics of .30-06 with 220 grain bullets identical to .30-03 with the same weight bullet. A Remington-UMC price list dated January 1, 1917, does not list .30-06 with 220 grain bullets, but their catalog No.107 (1923) does; I do not have access to catalogs or price lists for the intervening years 1918 to 1922. The Peters Cartridge Company’s price list dated August 1, 1919, does not list .30-06 with 220 grain bullets, but a flyer accompanying that price list does (other flyers with that price list announce the following additions to Peters’ ammunition offerings: 45 Auto Rim, 9mm Luger, 8mm Mauser, .22 Remington Autoloading, .22 Long Rifle NRA Hollow Point, and .41 Swiss Rimfire smokeless and smokeless shot ammunition). A Western Cartridge Company price list dated January 1, 1921, does not list .30-06, with any bullet weight, at all – nor does any previous catalog of price list from Western. The next Western resource available to me, a price list dated March 2, 1925, does list .30-06 being available with 220 grain bullets (among others).
Into the late 1920s, regardless of manufacture, factory-reported ballistics of the .30-06 loaded with 220 grain bullets consistently duplicated the reported performance of the .30-03 – which was evidently never offered in catalogs or price lists with anything other than a 220 grain bullet. Sometime around 1930 the muzzle velocity of the .30-06 with 220 grain bullets was increased from approximately 2200 f.p.s. to approximately 2400 f.p.s – where it remained.
I am left to wonder why, if the .30-06 never handled the 220-grain bullets “fine”, the various ammunition manufacturers continued to produce such ammunition for so many years, through the 1980s and beyond – even into the 2000s. Winchester-Western ammunition catalogs list the .30-06 with 220 grain bullets at least until 1981; Remington catalogs as recently as 2011.
Jim
Jim,
The rifling twist rate for the 30-06 was too slow for the heavy 220-grain bullet, and long range accuracy suffered.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Bert H. said
Jim,
The rifling twist rate for the 30-06 was too slow for the heavy 220-grain bullet, and long range accuracy suffered.
Bert
What reference did you use? Every source I have found stated the rifling twist for both cartridges was 1 in 10. Just curious, the existence of these 2 cartridges simultaneously interests me. In my own experience and reading the experiences of other serious shooters the 220 grain bullet is very accurate in the 30-06 and they shoot just “fine”.
There are 30-06 barrels that were made with a 1:10 tist and there are 30-06 barrels with a 1:12 twist… it is the latter that will not shoot accurately.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Bert H. said
There are 30-06 barrels that were made with a 1:10 tist and there are 30-06 barrels with a 1:12 twist… it is the latter that will not shoot accurately.
Bert
The topic was the 1895 Winchester, and the rifling twist in both the 06 and 03 chambering of the 1895 was 1 in 10, they were identical, so both chamberings should have handled the 220 grain bullet with equally. “The rifling twist rate for the 30-06 was too slow for the heavy 220-grain bullet, and long range accuracy suffered.”
The topic appeared to be drifting into a 30-03 cartridge versus 30-06 cartridge discussion. I drifted with it and did not stay on the Model 1895, and in that regard, you are correct that the rifling twist rate for both was the same.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
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