Log In
Members
Home
Add Reply
Add Topic
Offline
In the thread pertaining to how long Winchesters might stay in the warehouse, Bert pointed out a misconception I and others have had about what qualifies as ‘special order’. Looking at my reproduction of the 1895 catalogue, I see that various options were available at no extra charge (e.g., shotgun buttstock, half magazine, hard rubber buttplate). These options, therefore, are not actually specially ordered if I understand Bert correctly. I think I now have a better idea of what constitutes a special order rifle, but I think it is worth the clarification so the question is …What defines a rifle as being ‘special order’?
If I hear what Bert is saying, “anything that would be added cost would be special order.” Not sure if all will agree with this.
Brian
To me, if it was available to purchase over-the counter at a local hardware or gun store it was not a special order. If it had to be ordered through the factory, it was a special order–whether it was a no-cost option or not. Also, it seems on factory letters, the guns with “special” options shipped out of the warehouse within a day or two. Those with completely standard options hung out in the warehouse longer and likely shipped out in batches. That generally (but not always) seems to be a good indicator of a special order vs. non-special order to me. Just my opinion.
Don
If you read through Winchester’s catalogs, they specifically mentioned that “extras” could be ordered and listed them on a specific page in the catalog. Additionally, if you carefully read the catalogs, you will find that each variation was made with “standard” features, including the Fancy Sporting Rifles. Any features not listed as standard for the cataloged variation would be a special order. In other words, if someone wanted a Fancy Sporting Rifle, it came standard with deluxe walnut stocks, H-pattern checkering, pistol grip, crescent butt, and standard sights. Optional features were an octagon or half-octagon barrel, and a 1/2 mag.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Also, if I have this right, if you letter a rifle and does not show any extra features, the rifle was more than likely shipped with none. Lots, if not most, of rifles with special sights were added later. As were some with sling swivels. I had wondered why, when I lettered my M1894 with the 1/2 oct. bbl., it didn’t show the full magazine. That’s because it was a standard item. Most folks ordered their 1/2 oct. rifles with a non standard tube and that would probably show on a letter. If you collect Winchesters, sometimes you have to read between the lines. Without a letter, there really is no way to determine a special order rifle. A lot of these rifles went through many changes in 100 years. Super collectors like Bert and his buddy Larry can most often ascertain the originality of added features. Like most collectors, myself included, do not have the expertise to tell if a gun has been altered. Big Larry
Very nice Eastern Carbine collection, Big Larry. I think from now on, if I’m trading or selling an old Winchester, I will simply describe it as is, and indicate that it letters, and avoid using the term ‘special order’ unless I happen to have a catalogue from that year and can verify that a particular feature was ordered from the extra options offered in the catalogue that cost extra. Thus far, I only have a reproduction of the 1895 catalogue.
I have most of the catalogs from 1885 through 1963… so give me as shout when needed.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
So for discussion sake, I assume as a result of the 1/2 Octagon barrel and 1/2 magazine, 5 cartridge call out, this 1886 would probably be a “special order”,
where if only the checkered stock with pistol grip and shotgun butt rubber were listed it would no be?
I expect the fact that the rifle was shipped out the same day as received in the warehouse also fortifies the “special order” assumption?
Winchester Model 1873 44-40 circa 1886
win38-55 said
Very nice Eastern Carbine collection, Big Larry. I think from now on, if I’m trading or selling an old Winchester, I will simply describe it as is, and indicate that it letters, and avoid using the term ‘special order’ unless I happen to have a catalogue from that year and can verify that a particular feature was ordered from the extra options offered in the catalogue that cost extra. Thus far, I only have a reproduction of the 1895 catalogue.
Not all Eastern. A couple of early SRC’s too. I took that picture quite a few years ago and have since added a few SRC’s and rifles. Trying to catch up with Rick Hill, but that will never happen. Thanks, Big Larry
Kevin Jones said
So for discussion sake, I assume as a result of the 1/2 Octagon barrel and 1/2 magazine, 5 cartridge call out, this 1886 would probably be a “special order”,where if only the checkered stock with pistol grip and shotgun butt rubber were listed it would no be?
I expect the fact that the rifle was shipped out the same day as received in the warehouse also fortifies the “special order” assumption?
Kevin,
The magazine is not truly a “1/2” (even though it was written in the ledger and on the factory letter as such). It is a special order “5” cartridge magazine, which is slightly longer than a true 1/2 magazine.
The 1/2 octagon barrel was a no cost “optional” order. The checkered stock PG was standard for a Fancy Sporting Rifle, but the shotgun butt with a hard rubber butt plate was special order. If the ledger/letter had specified “Extra Lightweight”, the hard rubber butt plate was standard.
Yes, the fact that it was received and shipped on the same day also indicates that it was a special order.
In summary, the 5-cartridge magazine, and the shotgun butt & hard rubber butt plate were special ordered.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
I have a model 1873 made in 1885 with a 30 inch barrel and set trigger, letters with these options and went in and out the same day, so would this be a special order rifle? terry 
Terry,
Yes, both the longer than standard barrel, and the set trigger were special order features. The 30″ barrel cost an extra $4, and the set trigger was an extra $3.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
I have a Model 1873 ser# 14700 that letters as; ser#app. date not available. type, rifle barrel type, octagon barrel length, 26″ trigger, set checkered stock, casehardened. Received Ap 19, 1877. Shipped May 8, 1878 Order #16763. A couple of things I think odd, one being the fact the casehardening is mentioned , (as I thought it was standard on this vintage ’73), and second the length of time this gun sat in the warehouse being a “special” ’73. Any thoughts. Harry
W.A.C.A. life member, Marlin Collectors Assn. charter and life member, C,S.S.A. member and general gun nut.
Harry,
Color case hardening was not standard for the Model 1873 Sporting Rifle, but it was standard for the Special (Fancy) Sporting Rifle. Your Model 1873 was special ordered, but the order was most likely cancelled before it was ready to be shipped.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Bert, what is the best resource to get a detailed breakdown of these special features on Winchester rifles?
I have had very little luck researching the internet. A lot of information I have gathered from reading online conflicts.
Is there a book or digital download that is reliable and accurate? Thanks.
Cbhaddock said
Bert, what is the best resource to get a detailed breakdown of these special features on Winchester rifles?I have had very little luck researching the internet. A lot of information I have gathered from reading online conflicts.
Is there a book or digital download that is reliable and accurate? Thanks.
Let me start out by stating that this is a very complicated topic and question, and therefore quite confusing to many collectors (and the source of a lot of arguments)!
What I can state, is that there is no “single” all encompassing document or reference book that provides a detailed breakdown of all the many special order features offered on all of the various models & variations manufactured over the long time period between 1866 – 1963. You have to pick a Model, and a specific time period, and then go study it.
With that stated, it is my opinion that the best source of information concerning what was “standard”, what was “optional”, and what was “special” order for any Winchester model is contained within the original catalogs that Winchester issued. To determine what was, or was not “special order”, you need to first need to know what Model it is, then which specific variation it is, and then determine approximately when it was manufactured (to select the appropriate catalog). Winchester spelled it out clearly in each catalog what was standard, what was optional, and what was special order.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
How about a model 1873 made in 1885 with a 30 inch barrel and set trigger?Are these special order items? terry
tsillik said
How about a model 1873 made in 1885 with a 30 inch barrel and set trigger?Are these special order items? terry
A standard 73 rifle had a 24″ barrel with full mag with a plain trigger, crescent butt plate and had a blue finish so anything different than that is special order. So the rifle you referenced has two special features, a 30″ barrel and set trigger.
Bob
WACA Life Member--- NRA Life Member---- Cody Firearms member since 1991 Researching the Winchester 1873's
Email: [email protected]
I have a 34 inch 32-20 barreled 1873 received and shipped on December 29 1892. No other special features other then the long barrel. I guess by what I am seeing above this was a special order. Why would a 34 inch barrel on a plain gun be of any advantage to anyone. The only thing it actually provides is more rounds in the magazine.
THIS ALL STARTED WITH JUST ONE GUN!
A longer barrel is going to have a longer sighting radius is the one big advantage in proving your accuracy but if you see no advantage I’ll trade you of 24″.
Bob
WACA Life Member--- NRA Life Member---- Cody Firearms member since 1991 Researching the Winchester 1873's
Email: [email protected]
1 Guest(s)
