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What do the model 70 experts think of these two pre-64 model 70 super grades coming up at a local auction.
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May 26, 2022 - 12:46 pm
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I was looking through a local area shopper paper and there’s an add for an auction where two of the items are pre-64 model 70 super grades. One is serial #403 in 7.65 Argentine caliber, and the other is serial #203245 in .35 Remington. While I don’t know much about the pre-64 model 70’s except to know that there are fakes out there, I’m wondering what you guys think of these two coming up at the auction. I don’t collect model 70’s, and have no interest in these. Just looking to learn more and to see if they are legit.

https://www.auctionzip.com/Full-Image/3680711/fp1.cgi

Al

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May 26, 2022 - 3:35 pm
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Odd for two rare calibers to show up together in an obscure auction.  But IF legit, maybe a chance to acquire them at less than the stratospheric prices they’d bring at a major auction.  Like to hear Lou’s verdict on them.

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May 27, 2022 - 12:54 am
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I would say not legit, but yes, interested in what Lou has to say.

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May 27, 2022 - 3:40 am
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Hi Al-

I checked the records available to me, including my survey and other information to which I have access.  I have no record of S/N 403.  As for S/N 203245, check the link below:

https://www.rockislandauction.com/detail/59/672/pre64-winchester-model-70-bolt-action-rifle-in-270-winchester

Maybe RIA got the S/N wrong in their catalog???  But if one is bad, I’d be suspicious of both.  They do look very good though…  Barrel markings are way above average.

Lou

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May 27, 2022 - 12:22 pm
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The 7.65 mm sold for 20k. The 35 REM sold for 10k

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May 27, 2022 - 12:26 pm
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Thanks Lou,

So it appears that sn 203245 was in .270 back in 2013.  I agree with you, both are suspicious. The sale was yesterday, I’m not sure how to see what they sold for.

Al

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May 27, 2022 - 12:32 pm
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dane62 said
The 7.65 mm sold for 20k. The 35 REM sold for 10k

  

So much for my theory about the possibility of a good buy from an obscure auction co.  With everything so easily found on-line (not that I know how to do it), “sleepers” have evidently become extinct.

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May 27, 2022 - 2:18 pm
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I was bidding on the phone. That’s how I know what they sold for.

What kind of value would a Model 54 rifle in 7.65 Argentine have? Or compared to a 30-06 in the same condition?

Thanks, Dana

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May 27, 2022 - 3:05 pm
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dane62 said
I was bidding on the phone. That’s how I know what they sold for.

What kind of value would a Model 54 rifle in 7.65 Argentine have? Or compared to a 30-06 in the same condition?

Thanks, Dana

  

Wow. They sold for some good money.

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May 27, 2022 - 3:48 pm
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This is a prime example why I don’t collect model 70’s beyond a standard common caliber shooter.  Way too many fakes out there.  Same goes for a few other models.  It’s a shame the fakers have ruined (in my opinion) the collectability of certain models.  

Don

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May 27, 2022 - 4:53 pm
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dane62 said Or compared to a 30-06 in the same condition?
 

I’d guess maybe 2 Gs if near mint, but Lou is better informed.  Not only the best of all the different chamberings, but now the most economical to own, because so many were sold.  Why would anyone outside Argentina want a rifle in 7.65?

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May 27, 2022 - 4:54 pm
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dane62 said
I was bidding on the phone. That’s how I know what they sold for.

  

By the way, Dana, while you were on the phone, did you ask if these were guaranteed to be original?

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May 27, 2022 - 6:50 pm
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By the way, Dana, while you were on the phone, did you ask if these were guaranteed to be original?

  

No, I didn’t ask.  Pretty sure I can guess that answer.

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May 27, 2022 - 7:00 pm
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Dana-

As much as I appreciate Clarence’s confidence, I really don’t have a sense of what a legit 7.65 M/M M54 would sell for.  They just don’t surface often and while I keep a running record of M70s for research purposes, even with them I do not record asking/sale/hammer prices.

That said, a genuine 98% condition, unaltered (no holes, no bridge alteration), M54 1st standard rifle in a common chambering, like 30 GOV’T’06 or even 30 WCF, can be anywhere from $1750 to $2750.  In other words, they can get close to the asking price of a similar condition pre-war M70 standard rifle in 30 GOV’T’06.   But I don’t have a good feel for how much of a premium the caliber should bring, everything else being equal.  M54s don’t usually bring as much as M70s, but more people are scared of super rare M70s (with good reason) than rare M54s. 

So I think I’d be expecting to pay maybe double (???) for a M54 in 7.65 M/M (???).  All depends on originality, condition, and the buyer, I suppose… Confused

I would have liked to get a hands-on look at those M70 Super Grades.  From the limited photos, the barrels looked quite good to me.  So if faked they’re pretty darned well done fakes.  Would have to look closely at the rest of the barrel (and underneath) to have an opinion.  I think maybe (???) the stock on the 7.65 M/M has the front sling swivel base set in the usual further back position rather than being up close to the fore end tip as seen on the earliest Supers, but not sure.  That would at least say (to me anyway) that it wasn’t a real Super Grade, but not that it wasn’t a “real” 7.65 M/M barrel.  

If it weren’t for the RIA Auction 59 listing of S/N 203245 that was in my survey, I don’t think I could knock the 35 REM.  It seems there were a few 35 REM rifles put together in the low 200K serial number range (1952) and even a few in the low 300K range (1954) during barrel clean-up.  So the high serial number isn’t an automatic rejection.  It would be interesting to measure the bolt face recess (0.475″ on 35 REM versus 0.485″ on 270 WIN and everything else), and the check the magazine, extractor collar, and ejector (parts unique to 35 REM and 250-3000 SAV).  Those things make the 35 REM hard to fake, but if you can make a barrel that good I guess you can do the rest…

At the end of the day I just won’t think about guns like those in an auction or on-line sale.  Too much risk…

Best,

Lou

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May 27, 2022 - 7:13 pm
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Thanks Lou.

I have a Model 54 rifle in 7.65 Argentine. I stumbled upon it a few years ago. It has an extra hole for a scope mount in the rear bridge, but that didn’t stop Me from buying it. LOL. I agree, how do you put a price on something that almost never shows up for sale. I like it and it certainly is the centerpiece of My meager Model 54 collection.

Thanks, Dana

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May 29, 2022 - 3:15 pm
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Anyone know what the .270 FW sold for?

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