Odd for two rare calibers to show up together in an obscure auction.  But IF legit, maybe a chance to acquire them at less than the stratospheric prices they’d bring at a major auction.  Like to hear Lou’s verdict on them.

Hi Al-

I checked the records available to me, including my survey and other information to which I have access.  I have no record of S/N 403.  As for S/N 203245, check the link below:

https://www.rockislandauction.com/detail/59/672/pre64-winchester-model-70-bolt-action-rifle-in-270-winchester

Maybe RIA got the S/N wrong in their catalog???  But if one is bad, I’d be suspicious of both.  They do look very good though…  Barrel markings are way above average.

Lou

I was bidding on the phone. That’s how I know what they sold for.

What kind of value would a Model 54 rifle in 7.65 Argentine have? Or compared to a 30-06 in the same condition?

Thanks, Dana

This is a prime example why I don’t collect model 70’s beyond a standard common caliber shooter.  Way too many fakes out there.  Same goes for a few other models.  It’s a shame the fakers have ruined (in my opinion) the collectability of certain models.  

Don

dane62 said
I was bidding on the phone. That’s how I know what they sold for.

  

By the way, Dana, while you were on the phone, did you ask if these were guaranteed to be original?

Dana-

As much as I appreciate Clarence’s confidence, I really don’t have a sense of what a legit 7.65 M/M M54 would sell for.  They just don’t surface often and while I keep a running record of M70s for research purposes, even with them I do not record asking/sale/hammer prices.

That said, a genuine 98% condition, unaltered (no holes, no bridge alteration), M54 1st standard rifle in a common chambering, like 30 GOV’T’06 or even 30 WCF, can be anywhere from $1750 to $2750.  In other words, they can get close to the asking price of a similar condition pre-war M70 standard rifle in 30 GOV’T’06.   But I don’t have a good feel for how much of a premium the caliber should bring, everything else being equal.  M54s don’t usually bring as much as M70s, but more people are scared of super rare M70s (with good reason) than rare M54s. 

So I think I’d be expecting to pay maybe double (???) for a M54 in 7.65 M/M (???).  All depends on originality, condition, and the buyer, I suppose…

I would have liked to get a hands-on look at those M70 Super Grades.  From the limited photos, the barrels looked quite good to me.  So if faked they’re pretty darned well done fakes.  Would have to look closely at the rest of the barrel (and underneath) to have an opinion.  I think maybe (???) the stock on the 7.65 M/M has the front sling swivel base set in the usual further back position rather than being up close to the fore end tip as seen on the earliest Supers, but not sure.  That would at least say (to me anyway) that it wasn’t a real Super Grade, but not that it wasn’t a “real” 7.65 M/M barrel.  

If it weren’t for the RIA Auction 59 listing of S/N 203245 that was in my survey, I don’t think I could knock the 35 REM.  It seems there were a few 35 REM rifles put together in the low 200K serial number range (1952) and even a few in the low 300K range (1954) during barrel clean-up.  So the high serial number isn’t an automatic rejection.  It would be interesting to measure the bolt face recess (0.475″ on 35 REM versus 0.485″ on 270 WIN and everything else), and the check the magazine, extractor collar, and ejector (parts unique to 35 REM and 250-3000 SAV).  Those things make the 35 REM hard to fake, but if you can make a barrel that good I guess you can do the rest…

At the end of the day I just won’t think about guns like those in an auction or on-line sale.  Too much risk…

Best,

Lou