Log In
Members
Home
Add Reply
Add Topic
Offline
Sealed the deal on this rifle last week. It is listed in Chandlers DFA as having shipped to the US Army Rifle Team on 19 Jun 1955.
Interestingly enough, it has a USMC marked Lyman STS mounted and was (as the story goes), used by a Marine shooter as his comp rifle. I am still trying to get as much info as I can from said individual.
These are the only pictures I have so far. When I get it in hand, I will document it from one end to the other. Still wears the factory barrel and nothing has been changed best of my knowledge. 
The rifle is not USMC marked, only the Lyman. Scope markings and serial number range are consistent with 2 that belonged to Mr. Chandler and another that was shown in inventory.
That said- The scope holds very little interest to me other than if it works or not. The rifle is my focus.
My Van Orden came with a Lyman STS that was a P.O.S. Sent it back for repair and it was $900 to fix it. He sent it back and I got $150 out of it for parts. I am sorry, but I never recorded the serial number of the scope. Good catch on the rifle. Big Larry
Your Lyman STS was originally shipped to the USMC in 1967, it is not a fake. That info come’s directly from the Lyman journals. Actually yours and the other you show in a later picture were shipped to USMC on same day in 1967. Both began life as 12X with standard crosshair reticle.
I have never seen a “U.S. Property” marking on a 70 like the one shown in your picture. All of them that I have owned and seen have the marking done with an electric marking pen and are horizontal on front ring. Cannot tell for sure from picture, but yours look’s more like a vibrator pencil marking. I am relatively certain that model 70’s earmarked for Government contract were marked at Winchester at Government’s request. The 52’s I have seen with same marking are done exactly the same way and even look’s like the same person marked them all based on the style of lettering. The 52’s were marked at factory right before packing. Most likely yours was done either at Evaluators Ltd, or at the base which received rifle. See picture attached, for 2 different rifles. By the way my Van Orden is not marked with any such markings at all. It was shipped to a Government base in Philadelphia.
Steve
Seewin- thank you for the info Re the scope. I was unsure about it even though it pointed to being at least similar to existing known USMC samples.
It is my understanding (albeit limited compared to some of you), that the Army marked their own rifles.
Anyone want to hazard a guess as to what this all may be worth? I didn’t overpay but, not quite sure where to estimate the ceiling might be on this.
Hi madkinz-
Congrats!!! The rifle looks correct to me. 
I cannot comment on the military property markings. Mine (S/N 351439 shown above) was one of the civilian sold Van Orden Snipers that was never US Property. But the stock on your looks good. If you get the chance when the gun is in-hand, consider providing the butt stock dimensions (LOP, drop, and pitch). These Van Orden sniper stocks had unique special ordered butt stock dimensions matching the Springfield ’03 National Match rifles (and different from the standard M70 stock).
Best,
Lou
WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters
Regarding your question about value… Hard to say b/c the data are all over the place. It’s worth what someone will pay for it… 
Van Orden rifles are uncommon, but not exactly “rare” as M70s go. A few years ago one was listed on RIA with a low estimate of $7500. It was correctly described as a Van Orden but was messed up, i.e. non-original recoil pad. It did not sell… I’ve read discussions on the Sniper’s Hide forum about them selling for $4500-5000 when they turned up in the Northeast.
OTOH… I paid $2250 for mine, as it was sold at auction unrecognized as a Van Orden. When I first saw it I thought it was a “replica”, but the S/N turned out to be on Chandler’s list and the stock dimensions check out so I think it’s legit. I’ve subsequently seen a couple of others sell in that same range, again not recognized as Van Ordens. Some “Sniper’s” with the modified standard style stock, others “Special Target” with the Marksman style stock.
So the value (for the rifle alone) is somewhere between $2000 and $7000. Not much help, I’m afraid… The confirmed original Lyman STS would add significantly, no doubt. If by any chance you are looking to pass it on, I know someone who might be interested (not me)…
WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters
I just want to clarify that the scope is significantly later manufacture than the rifle. They are not of same vintage.
Steve
Steve and Lou both – many thanks.
I am looking forward to getting this in hand. This isn’t my only 70 but, it is my only Van Orden. It would be nice to be able to dig some info up as to this rifles (and scopes) history. Another “If they could only talk”
Hi madkinz-
FWIW… I have a set of the original paperwork that accompanied a Van Orden rifle (it was a “Special Target” sold to the military). I’ve scanned the documents, some of which might be of interest to you in your research. The enclosed advertising material, e.g. Lyman scope brochure, is interesting only in that it has an “Evaluators Ltd” rubber stamp on the cover, but other parts, e.g. the mimeographed sighting instructions, are possibly worthwhile.
If you’d like access to the scans, please send me a PM with an e-mail address or e-mail me direct at [email protected]. The files are in pdf format (not supported by the WACA website) and in aggregate are too big for me to e-mail via my University server. But I can give you DropBox access to download them. I just need an e-mail address to grant you (or anyone else who’s interested) access.
Best,
Lou
WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters
seewin said
Your Lyman STS was originally shipped to the USMC in 1967, it is not a fake. That info come’s directly from the Lyman journals. Actually yours and the other you show in a later picture were shipped to USMC on same day in 1967. Both began life as 12X with standard crosshair reticle.
This is the first time I have heard of this existing, are there set serial ranges of the scopes? Or how many are there? I would love to hear more detail about this.
I have the Lyman purchase documents with the Marine teams pre WWII, and also during WWII. I also do have WRA purhcase documents of rifles for the teams pre WWII. What is also interesting is I have the counts as well from 1954 when all the team equipment was moved from the Philly Depot to Albany, and they only detail they only have 12 total of the 12X Lyman SuperTargetspot scopes. They detail that the Supertargetspots were for the .300 Win Mag Model 70’s they had. All the 30 Cal Model 70’s just detail they have the lyman receiver sights. This was their total inventory as it was being transferred to Albany.
Is there something you would consider a trade over? I have about 10,000 documents at least on the Marines and Army. If there is something you research on that, I might have something that would help your research.
I know people say the 17,000 range is heavy in them. But I’m like Big Larry, I get nervous when I see a USMC Property electropenciled on one of these, and you see tons of them out there.
I have one of the electric etchers, exactly like the ones the Marines purchased in 1938 from Ideal. I know several people who do and they are also the same people who always seem to just magically come up with a new USMC property scope from time to time. 🙁
But this is very fascinating to me. I never heard these Lyman documents existed.
Hi Aaron-
Looks very nice!!! Congrats!
If it is of use to you, I’m attaching some composite photos of mine (S/N 351439) out of the stock. I don’t think mine was “worked on” much after it left Evaluators Ltd, but I’m curious about any differences you might see between the two rifles:
Per the Van Orden literature, these rifles were shipped with a Lyman 48WH receiver sight and Lyman 77R globe front sight in AK block (as in the pictures), in case you want to put metallic sights onto your rifle. It’s clear yours once carried the AK block at the muzzle.
I’d be curious about the barrel date, whether there is any bedding compound around the action/recoil lug, and whether the barrel is “free floated” enough that you can slide a piece of paper between the barrel and the barrel channel. Mine has no bedding (maybe traces of some Bisonite on the receiver bedding flat but no wood removed for bedding purposes), and the barrel is slightly free floated (compared to other M70 target rifles). Enough that a sheet of paper will move pretty freely up and down the barrel channel, but not much more than that.
Best,
Lou
WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters
1 Guest(s)
