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Hey guys! Happy New Year! I have seen several of these lately with serial numbers 61k-90k. Some stuff I have read indicates that the rear bridge was not routinely drilled until serial number 100,000. I have seen some that were not tapped and some that had one hole. Another one had two holes. .450 inches apart. I cannot find any info to determine whether these guns are original or altered. So, were some of these drilled at the factory?
Thanks,
Ryan
November 5, 2014
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Ryan-
Based on both the books and my own observation, I would question the originality of any type II (cloverleaf tang, smooth bridge) long Magnum action that has a D&T bridge. That includes the “type II-2” (with late safety) rifles that were assembled in the (roughly) 100,000 to 120,000 S/N range that overlapped with type III (oval tang) long magnum actions.
The main reason the long magnums weren’t D&T was that at the time (late 1940s) the manufacturers of scope bases that would fit the long magnum action, e.g. Redfield or Buehler, were using different hole spacings. Apparently it took a while for everybody to agree on 2 holes 0.425″ apart on the bridge of long magnum and 30-06 target models (that still had a clip slot).
As for type III long magnum actions, I recently saw one on-line with a 165000 range that was undrilled, and Rule pictures S/N 169445 a 375 MAGNUM standard rifle that is undrilled. On the other hand, I’ve seen a type III action with a S/N around 105000 that was marked 300 H&H MAGNUM (suggesting assembly post-1950) and looked to be factory drilled (can’t swear it of course). I guess that a lot of long magnum actions got assembled “out of sequence” in that time frame.
As far as telling whether the holes are factory or not, Vic Van Ballenbergh offered some good advice in another thread recently. Just quoting him:
“Factory D&T receiver holes were counter sunk (check looking straight into the holes with a magnifier). Most of the after market holes were not counter sunk. Some of them even have a “collar” of raised metal around the lip of the hole.
M70 action steel was very hard and tough on drill bits as small as those necessary to D&T the rear bridge. Plus, there was often heat buildup during the drilling. Check around the holes for discoloration.”
Best…
WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters
The screw holes were actually not countersunk, but counterbored. The dimension on the counterbore was .143″ dia x .015″ deep. Most receivers that were done after leaving the factory, were either chamfered via countersinking, or not chamfered at all. There is a distinct difference in the 2 operations. The countersinking operation uses typically an 82 or 90 degree included angle cutter to remove the drilling burr. A counterbore is a square bottomed cutter that produces a recess with a square corners at the bottom of the recess. Take a look at picture. This is a 375 with factory correct .435″ c-c spacing. You can clearly see the counterbored edge of hole.
Also, look for blue in the counterbore and threads, as seen in picture. Non factory holes will typically have threads in the white.
Steve
Wow! Lots of really cool information there. It is appreciated to say the least. I will pay attention to these in the future for sure. I am quickly learning how tricky it can be to identify originality in Model 70 Magnum rifles. My Dad, who has been around these guns for ages said he has seen them with all the variations. He had mentioned to me the serial number range of 100,000-120,000 referenced earlier. Of course, I don’t think he has taken out the rear bridge screw that often prior to a purchase…
Ryan
November 5, 2014
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Steve-
Great information and clarification. Quick question… How did the factory handle the 6-48 holes on the barrels (somewhat smaller diameter than the receiver) of target rifles?
You got me curious so I pulled out three pre-war/transition target rifles. If I squint I can definitely see the counterbore (as pictured above) on the receiver rings and on the bridge of the transition era rifle (it’s a 220 Swift so should be factory drilled).
But I cannot make out a counter bore on the the barrels where factory drilled for the telescopic sight block (maybe just my bad eyes???). The 0.143 diameter counter bore is of course slightly larger than the 0.138 major diameter of a 6-48 machine screw, so the last 0.015 of the hole should not be cut by the tap, which is the case on the receiver (as in your example). But on the barrels the threads appear to me to spiral all the way out to the surface. Is it just that I’m going blind (probably) or were the barrels handled differently?
Cheers,
Lou
WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters
November 5, 2014
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Steve-
Thank you. I figured you probably had the blueprints!!!
BTW… After I wrote that post I went looking for an LED-lite Optivisor!!! My eyesight is nothing to brag about…
Best,
Lou
WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters
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