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Just in case you did not already know just how dishonest this seller is…
How it is now – http://www.gunbroker.com/item/651426567
I realize that many of you know just how much of a slime-bag the seller is, but I urge all of you to warn all other collectors you know to stay as far away from his business as possible. The word needs to spread as far and wide as possible.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Here are two more… I surveyed both of these rifles at the WACA Cody show a few years ago, and they were not in boxes!
http://www.gunbroker.com/Item/651425303
Just as a point of interest, I have recorded (42) sets of consecutive serial numbers, with (1) set of three in a row in my Model 71 research survey.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Logic would have it thus:
Where SDOG = bad + GB says SDOG = 167A+ = GB bad.
Never buy from SDOG.
Never trust GB seller ratings.
With Tripadvisor, Angie’s List and a thousand other rating companies out there, you’d think there might be market for internet seller ratings too. From guns to anything else, Ebay, etc. Hmmmm. Maybe there’s a demand here looking for a supplier. $$$$$$$$$$
November 7, 2015
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Auction ended without any bids on the first box, no bids on the matching boxes yet. Seems I’ve made a wrong turn somewhere. I’m trying to get into collectable Winchesters but clearly the money is in boxes and pamphlets.
TXGunNut said
Auction ended without any bids on the first box, no bids on the matching boxes yet. Seems I’ve made a wrong turn somewhere. I’m trying to get into collectable Winchesters but clearly the money is in boxes and pamphlets.
I sent him a warning to remove the first auction within 2-hours, or I would turn him in for fraud. He apparently heeded my warning. Getting caught red-handed in an outright lie must have motivated him.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Thanks Bert for your efforts in keeping us notified of these fraudulent offerings.
Winchester Model 1873 44-40 circa 1886
Kevin Jones said
Thanks Bert for your efforts in keeping us notified of these fraudulent offerings.
Agreed. I’m coming here first for input before buying. Thanks Bert.
I’m truly amazed!! Wow! I wonder what are is operating costs to manufacture such items. He must keep the printer going non-stop making all those pamphlets, instructions and box labels.
I think if you look close enough at the box end labels, the spray adhesive he used on them is still wet in the photos. It also appears to bleed into the paper causing an uneven look to it. I guess that’s what he gets for using cheap paper.
I hate to see those Gun Oil brochures. I actually collect such Winchester Ephemera and will be keeping my eyes peeled for those fakes.
You know I actually think those Gun Oil brochures were made up into the 1960s and not before 1928 and would not constitute “Fair Use”. I wonder if Olin or whomever still owns the Winchester Trade Mark would be interested in pursuing this guy for Fraud and violating Copyright law.
Sincerely,
Maverick
WACA #8783 - Checkout my Reloading Tool Survey!
https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-research-surveys/winchester-reloading-tool-survey/
Good day for the guy.
I sent him a question, asking if he was “sending this stuff out from prison with other felons.”
I try to keep a list of all Winchester dealers/sellers who not to deal with, however it may be a good idea to stick a single thread at the top for reporting all fraudulent for sale listings/sellers for quick reference. A kind of a ‘wall of shame’ for these deserving crooks.
Winchester Model 1873 44-40 circa 1886
November 7, 2015
Offline
Another thing that bothers me about SDOG (and others like him) is that he takes what I think is a pretty decent gun and kills all true collector value by trying to make it something it’s not.
It’s sad that some folks have obviously fallen for his fakes, otherwise he wouldn’t be making more.
I like the copyright angle, Maverick. Sad thing is with all the changes over the years it may be difficult to find who owns the copyright for this material, for all we know it could be SDOG.
TXGunNut said
I like the copyright angle, Maverick. Sad thing is with all the changes over the years it may be difficult to find who owns the copyright for this material, for all we know it could be SDOG.
Olin still owns the copyright, those rights have never been sold. They would have to establish they are indeed reproductions, that SDOG was the creator and then issue a “cease and desist” letter, all of which is highly unlikely.
Regards,
WACA Life Member #6284 - Specializing in Pre-64 Winchester .22 Rimfire
JWA said
Olin still owns the copyright, those rights have never been sold. They would have to establish they are indeed reproductions, that SDOG was the creator and then issue a “cease and desist” letter, all of which is highly unlikely.
Regards,
Don’t think proof of creation is a legal requirement; selling them (after proper notification by trademark owner) suffices for legal action. Sellers (usually not the creators) of bootleg DVDs are prosecuted this way.
clarence said
Don’t think proof of creation is a legal requirement; selling them (after proper notification by trademark owner) suffices for legal action. Sellers (usually not the creators) of bootleg DVDs are prosecuted this way.
True, you are right. Regardless, I doubt it is worth their while to make the effort.
Regards,
WACA Life Member #6284 - Specializing in Pre-64 Winchester .22 Rimfire
JWA said
True, you are right. Regardless, I doubt it is worth their while to make the effort.
Regards,
Different attitude over at Mickey D’s: open up a “McDonald’s Hot Dog Stand,” and even though your name IS McDonald, their lawyer-bullies will spend a million to make you change it, or put you out of business.
Maverick said
I’m truly amazed!! Wow! I wonder what are is operating costs to manufacture such items. He must keep the printer going non-stop making all those pamphlets, instructions and box labels.
The box end labels (and top labels) are clearly fakes. There are a lot of boxed Model 70s out there with labels identical to these. They are not copies of originals and lack certain features the originals had.
The boxes are very likely fakes but it’s hard to be 100% certain from photos unless boxes are in hand. The fakes are made with cardboard that differs from originals made with cardboard available at that time (prior to the mid-1960s). Original boxes almost always show aging and fading that reproductions do not even if the fakers “age” the boxes with various techniques.
The brochures, instructions and pamphlets may well be original. These original items are still available and not very costly. Lots were printed at the factory and many survive today.
Surprisingly, I don’t see M71 hang tags in the photos. The “generic” (fill-in-the-blank) ones have been replicated and marketed at low prices. Lots of them are out there. The caliber and style specific ones have not been replicated and are harder to obtain. One thing the fakers are often careless about is they fail to include the proper hang tags (also bolt tags and sight alignment tags) that match the time period when the rifle was made. There were subtle and not so subtle changes in these tags over time, for example, as the company name changed.
To protect yourself from the fakes there is no substitute for looking at a large number of original boxed guns to learn what they look like. It’s hard to do these days as original boxed guns are rare, especially for certain models. Second best is to rely on someone’s advice who does have the experience (not the guy selling the rifle).
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