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I saw something today in the live auction message column that I hadn’t seen before. RIA stated that a 1% premium is added to the buyer’s premium for onsite bidding. Wait a minute, if that’s the case, why are you paying a buyer’s premium? So, on a $100K rifle, you have to pay an extra grand just for use of a chair? Is this new? Common? I’ve known of internet premiums, but this…. 
TR said
Rare, minty, and famous are bringing good money. That tells me the big collectors are still buying, a good sign. T/R
I don’t disagree but I would have been thrilled to see the lesser dollar, more non-wealthy collector pieces do well.
Well I had a negative/ positive , and totally against everything I Preach,experience that a lot of auction houses should take an example from. I bought 8 pieces from Ward’s auction in Alberta a couple of weeks ago, a model ’94 15″ trapper that actually lettered, being one of them. Ward’s is now the “big” auction house in Canada and used to be Bud Haines auctions.I looked at all the pictures etc. and won the bidding at $10000.00 + $2000.00 buyers premium, I love these little guns. I got the gun home last week and after close inspection I found the upper tang to have been broken and welded, I was devastated and vowed to go back to My oath to never buy unseen at auction. Well after the initial shock and prospect of losing several thousand dollars, I called Brad Ward and told Him of My dilema, at which He said You did read the disclaimer, right. I said I had but this is a blaring repair, although not visible in the pictures, causing the $10000.00 gun to become a $2-3000.00 gun, a large hit to take on something bought on the description and pics of the appraiser. He said leave it with Me and I thought I was out My investment. He called Me next day and told Me to pack it up and send it back and He would send Me a cheque for the $12000.00. All I’m out is the shipping, whew. I haven’t had a lot of experience with the auction houses but this incident kind of restores My faith in the concept of professional business conduct and good faith, arms length transactions. Kudos to Brad Ward and Ward’s Auctions. To comment on R.I.A. , I bought a ’76 rifle a couple months ago, when it arrived it was everything and more that it was described to be and I was/ am more than pleased with My purchase and the professionalism on their part . Just a couple of positive experiences, In a post filled with a lot of negativity.
W.A.C.A. life member, Marlin Collectors Assn. charter and life member, C,S.S.A. member and general gun nut.
Henry Mero said
Well I had a negative/ positive , and totally against everything I Preach,experience that a lot of auction houses should take an example from. I bought 8 pieces from Ward’s auction in Alberta a couple of weeks ago, a model ’94 15″ trapper that actually lettered, being one of them. Ward’s is now the “big” auction house in Canada and used to be Bud Haines auctions.I looked at all the pictures etc. and won the bidding at $10000.00 + $2000.00 buyers premium, I love these little guns. I got the gun home last week and after close inspection I found the upper tang to have been broken and welded, I was devastated and vowed to go back to My oath to never buy unseen at auction. Well after the initial shock and prospect of losing several thousand dollars, I called Brad Ward and told Him of My dilema, at which He said You did read the disclaimer, right. I said I had but this is a blaring repair, although not visible in the pictures, causing the $10000.00 gun to become a $2-3000.00 gun, a large hit to take on something bought on the description and pics of the appraiser. He said leave it with Me and I thought I was out My investment. He called Me next day and told Me to pack it up and send it back and He would send Me a cheque for the $12000.00. All I’m out is the shipping, whew. I haven’t had a lot of experience with the auction houses but this incident kind of restores My faith in the concept of professional business conduct and good faith, arms length transactions. Kudos to Brad Ward and Ward’s Auctions. To comment on R.I.A. , I bought a ’76 rifle a couple months ago, when it arrived it was everything and more that it was described to be and I was/ am more than pleased with My purchase and the professionalism on their part . Just a couple of positive experiences, In a post filled with a lot of negativity.
Henry – that is a heck of a tale. I was pleased to read that it all turned out for the best. I know I would have been really steamed if I’d been stuck with that ’94 Trapper. It is risky buying sight unseen. Rarely is there an inspection privilege with an auction house. I suspect Brad Ward figured out the seller of the trapper knew of the repair.
Henry Mero said
Well I had a negative/ positive , and totally against everything I Preach,experience that a lot of auction houses should take an example from. I bought 8 pieces from Ward’s auction in Alberta a couple of weeks ago, a model ’94 15″ trapper that actually lettered, being one of them. Ward’s is now the “big” auction house in Canada and used to be Bud Haines auctions.I looked at all the pictures etc. and won the bidding at $10000.00 + $2000.00 buyers premium, I love these little guns. I got the gun home last week and after close inspection I found the upper tang to have been broken and welded, I was devastated and vowed to go back to My oath to never buy unseen at auction. Well after the initial shock and prospect of losing several thousand dollars, I called Brad Ward and told Him of My dilema, at which He said You did read the disclaimer, right. I said I had but this is a blaring repair, although not visible in the pictures, causing the $10000.00 gun to become a $2-3000.00 gun, a large hit to take on something bought on the description and pics of the appraiser. He said leave it with Me and I thought I was out My investment. He called Me next day and told Me to pack it up and send it back and He would send Me a cheque for the $12000.00. All I’m out is the shipping, whew. I haven’t had a lot of experience with the auction houses but this incident kind of restores My faith in the concept of professional business conduct and good faith, arms length transactions. Kudos to Brad Ward and Ward’s Auctions. To comment on R.I.A. , I bought a ’76 rifle a couple months ago, when it arrived it was everything and more that it was described to be and I was/ am more than pleased with My purchase and the professionalism on their part . Just a couple of positive experiences, In a post filled with a lot of negativity.
Glad you got satisfaction. Is that related to Ward’s Auctions (Eric Ward) in Dallas, OR?
I’ve purchased some really nice, honest rifles from RIA in the past. Never really had an issue. Of course, none of them were ever a bargain though.
Steve
WACA Member. CFM Member. NRA Lifer.
supergimp said
I’ve purchased some really nice, honest rifles from RIA in the past. Never really had an issue. Of course, none of them were ever a bargain though.
That’s my point. There are several other fine auction houses out there which offer selections just as nice as does Rock Island. The ability to obtain a bargain depends on other bidders out there, and how badly they want it, but I have obtained bargains from many of these other auction houses. I have never purchased anything from RIA as I am consistently outbid there, and not usually by just one bid, but nothing short of trounced–time and time again! Something doesn’t seem right. Not sure if it is shill bidding, or RIA attracts a clientele that purchases anything no matter the cost, or if it is something else??? It seems to me that if folks wish to engage in purchasing fine firearms, they would go about it wisely instead of just bidding without using any common sense. Sure, RIA has lots of pretty photographs, and I can say more about that here, but won’t…
Here’s an example. Yesterday RIA auctioned off a Smith & Wesson Triple Lock Revolver in .44 Special, with condition. It is, at auction, in my opinion, about a $2500 gun. So, a $2000 bid, by the time you add in commission, sales tax, and shipping, gets you to that dollar figure. This particular firearm hammered at $3,750. By the time you add in the commission, sales tax, and shipping, you are into this one for over $4500. I should mention that Smith & Wesson manufactured 15,376 of these revolvers (plus another 5000 or so for the British Government, bringing the sum total to a bit over 20,000, but the ones in .44 Special would be from the 15,376 production). Of these civilian produced 15,376 Triple Lock revolvers, about 10% of the production was the Target Model. The one that sold yesterday was not. Here is that lot from yesterday: https://www.rockislandauction.com/detail/80/1693/smith-wesson-44-hand-ejector-first-model-triple-lock-revolver
Here is a Target Model Triple Lock I purchased from a competitor of RIA Spring of 2019. Granted, the condition is not quite as good, and it did help that it was listed as a Model of 1908, which is true, but collectors commonly refer to these as Triple Locks. It is the much rarer Target Model. The stocks on these usually do not have a number as they were penciled in and it is faint, illegible, or gone, so having incorrect stocks really does not hurt the value. I sold those stocks on ebay and installed the proper ones. I was into this fine TARGET Model revolver $2,818.04 when it was all said and done. When I received it, it was better than in the photographs: https://poulinantiques.hibid.com/catalog/160818/spring-2019-firearms-auction/?q=smith+wesson+1908
This is just one example that comes to mind. I could come up with others…
Here are photographs of this Target Model Triple Lock today, with correct stocks:
Edit: I have no idea why these uploaded upside down but it’s still a nice revolver nonetheless.
I get it that auctions sometimes have some very nice one of a kind items and two competing bidders can really rack up the bids, especially when the adrenaline is flowing, but auctions are frequently a place for bargains, too, and fairly regularly. I just don’t see how I can obtain bargains, or reasonably priced items even, at other auction houses, but yet CONSISTENTLY come up empty handed when it comes to auction houses. I mean, how can you ever get out from under the price one paid for that Triple Lock yesterday and get one’s money back, or even close to doing so? The point in buying at auction is two-fold: To obtain unique items you could never find anywhere else and also to not pay retail, unless it truly is a one of a kind item and normal parameters just go out the window.
Perhaps RIA is truly the Sotheby’s and Christies of the firearms world and it brings out the folks with deep pockets, those who would not even think about looking elsewhere for firearms, just as there are wealthy collectors who do all their shopping at Sotheby’s and Christies and would never consider bidding at the local auction down the road, even though they might have some nice items as well.
I suppose it could be worse. Perhaps you were the sucker who paid $21,960 for this table that had a pre-auction estimate of $800 to $1200, which was high. This table with original finish would still be in the low 4 figures, and this one looks like it came out of a garden shed. Amazing what some interior decorator probably paid for this one and no doubt passed the cost on to their client: https://pookandpook.com/lot/painted-hard-pine-tavern-table-4035690
In summary, I will close with Caveat Emptor!!!
MRCVS – I enjoyed reading all of your thoughts. You make many excellent points and raise excellent questions as well. I suppose there are a multitude of answers that explain the various hammer prices we see. Rock Island seems to have some amount of established prestige over the smaller auction houses. It makes sense that as a general rule, they would fetch higher hammer prices. I also think that in general, they are more of the place to fetch a premium price for the rare and high-end pieces. Take just a plain, vanilla piece and it often won’t do that well. It’s just not what the high dollar bidders are there for.
Anyway, thanks again for taking the time to share your thoughts. I really enjoy (and learn) from hearing other’s perspective, observations and experiences.
steve004 said
MRCVS – I enjoyed reading all of your thoughts. You make many excellent points and raise excellent questions as well. I suppose there are a multitude of answers that explain the various hammer prices we see. Rock Island seems to have some amount of established prestige over the smaller auction houses. It makes sense that as a general rule, they would fetch higher hammer prices. I also think that in general, they are more of the place to fetch a premium price for the rare and high-end pieces. Take just a plain, vanilla piece and it often won’t do that well. It’s just not what the high dollar bidders are there for.Anyway, thanks again for taking the time to share your thoughts. I really enjoy (and learn) from hearing other’s perspective, observations and experiences.
You cannot put a like on posts on the forum, so here’s my “Like”.
Not that I want to drum up any more business for RIA, but perhaps if you are a buyer, you buy elsewhere and if you are a seller, you sell at RIA.
Again, not that I want to give them my business, but something to think about. Or maybe you just buy and sell elsewhere, realizing that if you have something nice to offer, it will likely sell well elsewhere but might not bring the very top dollar, but at least RIA did not make a commission along the way. Also, if you can negotiate a 0% sellers premium elsewhere–not to say this could not also be negotiated at RIA as well–it might not be so much of a pill to swallow.
mrcvs said
You cannot put a like on posts on the forum, so here’s my “Like”.
Not that I want to drum up any more business for RIA, but perhaps if you are a buyer, you buy elsewhere and if you are a seller, you sell at RIA.
Again, not that I want to give them my business, but something to think about. Or maybe you just buy and sell elsewhere, realizing that if you have something nice to offer, it will likely sell well elsewhere but might not bring the very top dollar, but at least RIA did not make a commission along the way. Also, if you can negotiate a 0% sellers premium elsewhere–not to say this could not also be negotiated at RIA as well–it might not be so much of a pill to swallow.
I was aware that for higher-dollar, premium items, some auctions houses will allow a 0% commission to the seller. Maybe even RIA will do this. All I can say is given the very high prices some of these premium items bring, if the seller is paying a 0% commission – some sellers are coming out extremely well!
Well, I’m out. I was watching this morning. I was struck over how low Winchesters were selling in general. Some exceptions, but I thought bidding was even lower today. Anyway, today was my anticipated day. The stuff I was interested in came on the block early. I was logged in, credit card on file, hand on the mouse… and … my wait was in vain. Winchesters were selling low but the items I was interested in went high 
This was the (first installment) of the Roger Muckerheide collection of Whitney-Kennedy’s, Burgess and Bullard rifles. I knew Roger for many years. He had been a very active collector for most of his life. In fact, way back, he was a Winchester collector and you will see his name in Madis’ Winchester book as George took photos of many of his rifles. Decades ago, Roger had his entire Winchester collection stolen. That kind of took the wind out of his sails as far as being a Winchester collector but he moved on to Whitney-Kennedy’s, Burgess and others. Somewhere around ten years ago, I flew down to the NRA Trophy show in Dallas and participated in a large 50+ rifle display of Whitney-Kennedy and Burgess rifles. It was Roger, myself and three other Whitney-Burgess collectors. It was a fantastic display. I miss him and there was an element of sadness to see his items for sale. But mainly, I am very pleased they did well as they did as it will benefit his widow.
Here’s an example – hammer price of $4750 (auction estimate of $1300 to $1900):
On a topic of inexplicable bidding, here is a Marlin Roger had. It’s a Marlin M1893 in .38-55. Hardly a rare piece. And, it’s been refinished. And, it has compass in the stock, And, the compass is cracked! Missing front sight. Non-original swivel studs. When I saw the auction estimate of $1300 to $1900 I thought that was quite high. Hammer price was $2250!
https://www.rockislandauction.com/detail/80/3070/antique-marlin-model-1893-lever-action-rifle
Given I observed many Winchesters sell way low, that magnified my astonishment over how well this Marlin did. Maybe there wasn’t much for Marlin collectors at this auction, so they had to go with what little there was.
Steve,
Hard to believe that it has been ten years since the big Whitney display that you mention. I was not there, but someone sent me a video display of it, and I might have posted it here on the forum, or someone else might have. I really enjoyed it.
The price of the SO Kennedy in 38-40 you linked to did not initially surprise me, but after reading the condition about it, it did great.
James
James – yes, the condition of that deluxe Whitney-Kennedy had several issues. Descriptors like, “artificial light brown, heat applied blue finish, light refinished case colors, minor pitting, repaired chips, chip absent, and mechanically needs work” … I’m not devastated I didn’t get it. There are elements of the rifle I liked, and Deluxe Whitney-Kennedys are rare. Also, the .38-40 chambering is quite rare in the Whitney-Kennedy.
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