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November 7, 2015
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Steve-
Your post reminded me of the time I got a wild hair; shot BP and cast bullets in an 1892 Winchester 32WCF with a very rough bore. Group seemed to improve for a few rounds before the bore was completely fouled and bullets started wandering off all over (and off!) the target.
Mike
steve004 said
I have never lapped a bore. Something for me to expand my knowledge of.What’s the opinion on linotype cast lead bullets? I notice a have a supply here of about 500 of them – in .375. They are 249 grain. I purchased them from a small-time cast bullet maker.
Steve, this is not an area I would suggest you get into with our old guns. My target barrels are all lapped but the bore is tighter to begin with to account for the metal loss during lapping. The other thing is when you buy a barrel that has been bored and lapped you still have to cut both ends off the barrel. So the barrels come longer to account for this. One end you ream the chamber and cut threads the other end you cut some off because the lapping messes up the crown.
If you want to polish the bore use Iosso or JB bore paste. Another product is Thorro Clean. It is a liquid with Iosso in it. Some even use mag wheel polish. Go very lightly if you do. In all case you are removing metal.
TXGunNut said
Chuck-
As you know I’ve been using techniques developed by benchrest shooters for hunting cartridges in hunting rifles and “shooters” for decades. In most cases I don’t have the skill or the hardware to take full advantage of them but with hunting ammo and other small batch projects there’s no reason to load anything but the best we can load. The cars we drive every day have many features developed in the racing world, normal guns can benefit from precision techniques.
Mike
Mike I totally agree. Most my Winchesters are loaded like factory loads. The ones I want to really hunt with or just shoot the best they can I use the tools and techniques that I have learned shooting long range.
Chuck said
If you want to polish the bore use Iosso or JB bore paste. Another product is Thorro Clean. It is a liquid with Iosso in it. Some even use mag wheel polish. Go very lightly if you do. In all case you are removing metal.
He’d better have plenty of patience using this method! Brownell’s, Midway, others, sell fire-lapping kits; you apply abrasive to bullets & fire them. Read how it works on their websites.
Sam Walker said
There are excellent books on the subject of bullet selection etc . I love Bryan Litz books “Applied Ballistics for long range shooting”. You say what does long range shooting have to do with Winchester open sight ranges? If I can learn the science behind long range shooting, I can take the same science, formulas and tools used in long range shooting and apply them to short or medium range lead or jacketed bullets.
Have not read any of Bryan’s books but I do have Applied Ballistics on my phone and it is installed on my Kestrel 5700X. I have read or watched some of his stuff. I also use the Berger loading manual a lot.
Some of the problems the Winchester guys have are the availability of about everything including the precision tools. Bushing dies, bushings, expander mandrels all stop around the 338 Lapua range. All primers are hard to find for testing. Powders are the same. Rimmed cases aren’t the most versatile. With effort and testing a good bullet can be found. Learning how to adjust neck tension without crimping isn’t that hard. I have had to make some custom expanders to get where I wanted. Due to the age of the guns we are limited to what can be done during powder node testing. Really don’t want to run up the pressure. Most don’t have the tools to set primers as they should or have scales that are accurate to .02 grns. Bullet and case comparators for the larger calibers aren’t available. The bullet comparators can be easily made though. If they really want to get into this they need a chronograph.
TXGunNut said
Steve-Your post reminded me of the time I got a wild hair; shot BP and cast bullets in an 1892 Winchester 32WCF with a very rough bore. Group seemed to improve for a few rounds before the bore was completely fouled and bullets started wandering off all over (and off!) the target.
Mike
How did it do with jacketed bullets?
November 7, 2015
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steve004 said
TXGunNut said
Steve-
Your post reminded me of the time I got a wild hair; shot BP and cast bullets in an 1892 Winchester 32WCF with a very rough bore. Group seemed to improve for a few rounds before the bore was completely fouled and bullets started wandering off all over (and off!) the target.
Mike
How did it do with jacketed bullets?
Steve-
Never bothered to buy any for it. I’ve posted a bit about this rifle before. Sent it off to be relined and gunsmith noticed it had a 23” barrel. Even as a novice collector I realized it would never be more than a shooter so when it came home with a relined 23” barrel I installed a modern Marble tang sight and a Lyman 17 front sight. Makes good use of a little dab of wheel weight alloy and a few grains of powder.
Mike
November 7, 2015
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As Chuck pointed out lapping removes metal. Unfortunately it will probably round the edges of the lands without repairing the pitting caused by corrosion as much of the pitting is likely to be below the surface. Lapping MAY reduce fouling by smoothing the edges of the pitting and/or possibly removing some stubborn copper fouling. Bore may be worth scoping to see what’s going on in there. Iosso makes a lot of sense, first thing to do is make sure the bore is as clean as you can get it and Iosso is a good way to accomplish that.
Mike
I am covering a couple of comments and questions here. Had a couple people email me and I wish to just type one answer to several questions.
I grew up with Winchesters all around me. I was raised by my grandparents, my grandpa had over 400 old Winchesters. I was BOTH fortunate and very lucky!!!
So I learned a lot from my grandpa to me he was John Wayne in the flesh. But as we all know now by surveys some of the knowledge was just wrong and some were half truths even myths while other parts were spot on. During and after 4 years in the military, I really got into long range shooting. I literally shot 5 focused rounds a day for a few years. That is how I learned to reload for long range shooting. So yes I have all the same type equipment Chuck mentioned and a few things not mentioned. Some of it I saw and made, most of it I bought. I continued to study and read about Winchesters then started restoring them. I actually started in post 64 winchesters to learn. And no I don’t work in post 64s and have not in many years.
After that I really started working on how to make them shoot accurately as possible. WITHOUT CHANGING THEIR ORIGINAL DESIGN! There are tricks I have learned from others and even learned on my own. Some I have kept and some I have discarded in the name of purity. I won’t bed (by any name)the wood of any Winchester. I don’t go installing receiver sights, crown rifle barrels, etc. I did all that and much more in the 1990s. I want things original as possible. I don’t use polishing wheels ever. I use files and sandpaper for metal prep as an example.
Winchesters are not going to be a 1,000 yard + custom 300 win mag shooting 230 grain Berger VLD hybrid bullets with a leupold mk 4 M1 3/4 USMC MILDOT with DD Ross base and floor plate, a custom barrel with 5R rifling with a military chamber for shooting long heavy bullets etc. we don’t need ammo from Redding bench rest dies neck sized only seated with a micrometer on indexed, weighed and fire formed cases for our Winchesters to shoot to their potential ….. so with Winchesters I use a GOOD ROLL OR TAPER crimp works well depending on caliber. (I prefer a taper crimp in 44 WCF simply because I can get a good crimp while letting my brass last longer than with a roll crimp.). In my 1886 in 45-70 1894s in 30 WCF, 32 WS, & 38-55 I use roll crimps due to the heavier recoil. I do use PRINCIPLES I learned in long range shooting but I don’t put my brass through 13 steps before I ever seat a primer.
Before I load a new caliber, I do a lot of research first. (I read a lot of books as I am an avid reader anyways) I apply a lot of gunsmithing, and reloading techniques sure. I do measure EVERY powder charge if it is .1 off I get a new charge of powder. Yes I am discussing winchester ammo here. I measure the bullet depth of every cartridge I make sure the seating depth of my primers etc. all powder, primer and bullets are from the same lot. i chronograph a sample of every batch of reloads I make. I use an oehler 35P, I make sure the bullets I order are the proper size, lube, and BNH.
But just like I said I lap barrels in my Winchesters. There is “bench rest” laping (as someone mentioned above) and there is old original Winchester barrel laping. I am not going to destroy an original barrel living up to anyone’s BR standard of laping. It would be silly to even contemplate cutting any Winchester barrel and you would wear the metal away. Like I said “don’t get carrier away use a decent laping compound” and yes I fire lap on really rough bores. People get too caught up in their text book version of things but can’t adapt from the text book to fit the situation at hand. I do the adaptation version for Winchesters. Every rifle, every situation is different and must be weighed on its own merits. There is no one fix or one size fits all. Knowledge is power while being able to take the purist form of gunsmithing and adapting to fit our old Winchesters just makes sense and how I want all my answers to be viewed.
I have used JB bore paste in the past but they changed the formula for it about 20+ years ago and it was never the same. So I don’t use it. Every Winchester is different in history, condition, how it was treated ie was it cleaned after being shot etc. Sorry i don’t give a lot of specifics about how I do things, the reason is every one has their own opinion. They may or may not match mine. That is fine. We don’t all have to agree. But FIRST I just make sure that what I do will NEVER destroy the value of the Winchester. THEN I want it to shoot as best it can. Yes if something is NOT A COLLECTIBLE 1873 first model or something similar sure I will screw a new tube on. No problem. within limitations I do want it to shoot the best it can. But yes those “principals” are still used even in reloading and gunsmithing on Winchesters. Hope that helps.
Sam
WACA Member
Colt Collectors Association Member
Buffalo Bill Center of the West Member
Sam – again, a very interesting and informative post. It was fun to hear about your background and growing up with all those Winchesters. “Fortunate and lucky” – you sure called that right! My Dad had three Winchesters and my grandfather had none (that is not something my grandchildren will be saying).
This post is a great example of why I will probably follow-through with an idea that has been building in me: printing out lots of threads and posts from this site and creating a Winchester Book (just for my own personal use of course). I have a lot of books and there is of course good information in most of them, but the information from this site is often one-of-a kind information that can’t be found elsewhere. I just need to stock up on printer paper and ink.
Back to your post, you raised many excellent points. I think one of the most important is that every situation is different and needs to be evaluated on all the variables that pertain to it. For example, the degree to which a rifle is a, “collectible” will vary, based on condition and perhaps other alterations. Among collectors/owners, the degree to which a rifle is considered a collectible will vary. Each person makes their own decision on that.
In my case, I do not strive for bench rest accuracy (or hot performance) out of my old lever rifles. However, I very much enjoy groups on the smaller side vs. the larger side. Back to, “hot performance,” I don’t even strive for that out of my modern bolt action rifles. I load everything on the lighter side.
Back to accuracy, this relates to two main variables. There is what the rifle/load combination can be capable of doing and then what the shooter is capable of doing. Most commonly here, we discuss the variables that involve the rifles. But there are also several variables that involve the shooter. Shooting technique and time spent practicing are significant aspects. But just like sometimes the impact of an old and pitted bore can only be corrected so much, the impact of an aging shooter with aging eyes is in the same category.
That’s where I’m at. I wear glasses, but they don’t help with shooting. Iron sights – front and rear barrel sights are fuzzy to me. Not that I can’t hit the target of course, but as far as drawing a fine bead on a target, I just can’t know the true capability of the load/rifle combination I am shooting. This is why the bulk of my iron-sighted rifle shooting is now at 25 and 50 yards. I can still test loads and discern which ones are more accurate than others but detecting that finest level of accuracy isn’t there anymore.
I do much better with scopes. But I’m not going to start putting scope mount holes in my lever rifles! This brings up pangs of regret I had never imagined I would experience. Over the decades, there were various vintage lever rifles that came along that had scope mount tap holes. For example, a decent, original finish, nice condition M1886, with only one flaw – the left receiver side had scope tap holes. I always passed on these. Again, I never would have imagined I would wish I had picked a few of them up. Of course, I didn’t used to picture getting old either.
Finally, I want to mention that one of the many things I enjoy about this site is I’m not alone here. I still work full-time and often sit in meetings where I’m the oldest one there – sometimes by 20, 30 years. I’m really not terribly old but it’s a young person’s world out there. Particularly the working world. All of my past co-workers are now retired. But here – I know I have lots of company 
And, it’s very good company 
Sam – keep up the great posts!
steve004 said
I do much better with scopes. But I’m not going to start putting scope mount holes in my lever rifles! This brings up pangs of regret I had never imagined I would experience. Over the decades, there were various vintage lever rifles that came along that had scope mount tap holes. For example, a decent, original finish, nice condition M1886, with only one flaw – the left receiver side had scope tap holes. I always passed on these. Again, I never would have imagined I would wish I had picked a few of them up. Of course, I didn’t used to picture getting old either.
I’ve had several Stevens & Ballards tapped, which is easy to do without marring markings because Ballard brls are unmarked on top & the Stevens marking is short & easily avoided. Winchester markings, however, are spread half the length of the brl, so nearly impossible to avoid.
Bases can be attached with epoxy, & will withstand moderate recoil, though this is only suitable for bench testing because there’s always a chance of one of them may let go; it happened to me, but the other base held, so my antique scope didn’t actually fall off. Epoxy residue removable with lacquer thinner (toluene).
The other alternative is use of a full-length scope with bases that attach to front & rear dovetails. Originals are hard but not impossible to find, will cost around 1 G or more. Tasco once made a replica that can probably be bought for a few hundred, but far better than that is MVA’s Series 900 at $1200; all these MVA scopes are very high quality.
All very interesting. As many of you know I buy Winchesters and Marlins with excellent bores only, sure saves a lot of frustration later. I load my old lever guns far different that I do my high-performance bolt guns. I weigh all my smokeless charges for my lever guns, probably more so because I don’t want to blow up more than for accuracy reasons. I load all black powder in all of my non 1895 rifles. I cast my own bullets so I have some control over quality. But it’s all pretty irrelevant because I can’t see iron sights anymore. Any gun I can shoot a 10 shot group into 8 or 10 inches at 100 yards makes me pretty happy.
I generally shoot black powder and lead in any gun that was designed for it. I guess the noise and smell is where it’s at for me these days. I’ve been shooting some 1895 Winchesters for the past month or so, so I’m working with smokeless, and bullets cast with Lyman #2 alloy and occasionally some copper jackets. This has been somewhat annoying as clean up is laborious. Black powder is honestly far easier to clean.
My latest 1895 adventure has been educational. In my youth I could lay the front sight in the middle of the black and see it clearly, now it disappears. So I’m going to have to start using a 6 o’clock hold to see the top of the sight again.
I’m getting close to needing an ego boost, so I think it’s time to drag out the schuetzen rifles with the scopes on them. I have a couple in 32 40 and one in 25 20ss. At least I can keep all the bullets in the ten ring!
As to copper VS lead in rough bores, copper will usually shoot far better, but be prepared to get your copper solvents out and drag all that copper fouling back out again!. Very tedious way to spend time for me.
Brooksy said In my youth I could lay the front sight in the middle of the black and see it clearly, now it disappears. So I’m going to have to start using a 6 o’clock hold to see the top of the sight again.
If you’re willing to temporarily change the front sight to a globe with aperture inserts like a Lyman 17A, the problem of focusing on the front sight, & placement of it on the target, is avoided entirely. Not good for hunting, or anything else but bullseye target shooting, but for that specific purpose & ammo testing, it’s the best way even IF you’re lucky enough to retain perfect eyesight. (And as someone cursed with poor eyesight from birth, believe me I’ve tried every “crutch” I could find!)
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