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Questions on Winchester Model 1895 Deluxe/Take Down in .30-03
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Posts: 5
April 13, 2023 - 10:28 pm

1sp_QuotePost

Hello.

This is my first post here. I inherited (among other firearms) a Winchester Model 1895 in .30-03 when my father passed away. I believe this would be referred to as a Deluxe model with the upgrade stock/checkering, but I am hoping to learn more about this rifle from experts on this site. 

Would anyone recommend a book on the Model 1895 besides Kassab & Dunbar’s out of print book? I see that it is available for $550 on at least one site, but since I am probably not looking at buying/collecting a lot of 1895s it is hard to justify spending that on a book. I have been browsing this site and other internet sites, but it doesn’t look like there is a ton of information out there on this model. 

Questions I have:

Does anyone have #’s on .30-03 vs. other calibers? It seems like there weren’t a lot of .30-03, since it was soon replaced by the .30-06, but is the .30-03 rare or desirable? I assume not that desirable, but maybe on the more rare side?

Does anyone know if all deluxe models were also take downs? This one is both a deluxe and is a takedown, but not sure if those were both separate options that you could order?

Based on the serial # 73430, I believe this was manufactured in 1915? Is it true that the B located under the serial means it came of the “B-line” in the factory? Or does the B signify something else? 

Is anyone willing to throw out a ballpark value? I know that it varies greatly on grading/caliber, deluxe vs. normal, take down vs. non-take down, etc, but again there are not a lot of Model 1895s out there for sale, so it is really hard to even come up with a range. I also assume that there are 1895 collectors out there, but this model isn’t as popular as others, so assume that contributes to the value. 

I will try to post some pictures later tonight. 

I appreciate anyone that takes time to read this and respond. 

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Posts: 5
April 13, 2023 - 10:46 pm

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Posts: 262
April 14, 2023 - 11:25 am

3sp_QuotePost

Your rifle is very valuable in the 5 digit range. The matted barrel is very unique and desirable. The B is just a factory marking to denote some mechanical detail changes. Nice Rifle!

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Posts: 4097
April 14, 2023 - 12:20 pm

4sp_QuotePost

That looks like a very valuable rifle to me.  I’d have to hold it in my hands or at least see a series of detailed photos… but from what I can see it is quite the piece.  A factory recoil pad is very desirable too.  I’ve never seen a factory pad on a .30-03.  Even though they started chambering the .30-06 a short number of years after the .30-03 came out, production of the .30-03 continued for a dozen years or so after that.  The .30-03 I had was manufactured about when yours was.  

You’re correct, just a plain .30-03 rifle is not considered particularly valuable.  But a rifle like yours, an entirely different story.

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Posts: 4517
April 14, 2023 - 4:54 pm

5sp_QuotePost

According to the Cody records (original Winchester files) your gun was manufactured in 1911.  I believe that if you contact the Cody Firearms Records Office they probably don’t have records of when this gun was manufactured or how it was assembled. 

Collectors would call this a straight grip deluxe.  Records would say it is fancy, checkered, straight grip in 30-03.  The Lyman sight , butt pad and matted barrel should also be noted.  I took a quick glance at the Kassab & Dunbar book but didn’t see production amounts by caliber.

This is a wonderful family heirloom.

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Posts: 516
April 14, 2023 - 5:18 pm

6sp_QuotePost

wow – this is one heck of a gun. Unfortunately, records are not available after 59,999. Everything looks right to me, including the pad. I have seen a few added pads on 35’s and 405’s and you have to cut the stock to add them. The distance from the rear swivel to the pad looks correct when I compare it to one of mine so I think it is factory. The swivels are surely factory. As noted previously, the matted barrel is not often seen on a Model 1895 – I am pretty sure I have never seen one on a 30-03. More often than not you see this Lyman sight on deluxe 95’s. And, the takedown feature is something you don’t see that often on this model. Pay the price for the new 95 book – the more you can learn about this gun will enhance the value when/if you decide to part with it.

95deluxestock.JPGImage Enlarger

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Posts: 5
April 14, 2023 - 11:43 pm

7sp_QuotePost

Thank you everyone for all of the responses…it is very much appreciated. It is interesting to know that the butt pad and matted barrel are rare…my dad was pretty knowledgable about Winchesters in particular, so it doesn’t surprise me that it is a pretty unique gun. 

The reason I ultimately asked about value was that someone my dad knew was asking about the gun and offered to buy it from me. My dad had a spreadsheet with all of his guns and values he believed they were worth, so I at least have a starting point. The offer I received was 40% below what my dad valued the gun at so was curious if anyone had an opinion. I believe my dad might have overvalued his collection, so I am just not sure. I have done hours of research online auctions/gun shows, but there are just not a lot of 1895s out there for sale to compare to. 

I can take and post additional pictures if that would be helpful. I know it is extremely difficult to value a gun without having it in hand to look at. 

I am not trying to actively sell the rifle, and I would love to keep it, but I am trying to help my mom pare down his collection as we cannot keep everything…let’s just say he was a collector of Winchesters rifles/shotguns, Remington rifles/shotguns, European manufactured handguns (especially WWI-WWII era), and US handguns and he used his FFL to acquire quite a few. Confused

If anyone wants to stick their neck out there and throw out a value range, I won’t hold you to it. I would love to hear what experts such as yourselves think if you are willing. Thanks to everyone again for their replies

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Posts: 4517
April 14, 2023 - 11:53 pm

8sp_QuotePost

Post pictures of the Winchesters.  Someone will probably give you a good idea what they are worth.

What did the “friend” offer?  How much over $5000?

I am not the best one to give you a guess.

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Posts: 5
April 15, 2023 - 12:25 am

9sp_QuotePost

So my dad had it as $9,000 and the guy offered $5,500. I have seen some online for around that price but they don’t look as nice, weren’t take downs, and it seems like maybe there are some unique things with this one that might make it worth more? 

Again, I would love to keep it but I understand that most collectors are getting older, there are not a lot of young folks looking for old Winchester rifles, and prices might not necessarily stay the same or may even go down with less demand. I love this history behind this and other older firearms, but it seems like less and less people value the history of these old guns and are more interested in the new cheap black plastic stuff. Also, if this was something my dad or grandpa acquired when they were young and had more family meaning I would probably never think of selling it. I know this is something my dad bought later in life because he was a collector, not necessarily something that would be considered a family heirloom. 

Thanks!

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Posts: 540
April 15, 2023 - 4:28 am

10sp_QuotePost

Matt,  Based on what I can see in the pictures, it would seem to be in original condition.  However, I am atrocious with pictures as I don’t download them, blow them up, and otherwise manipulate them like some are capable of doing.  It is a rather scarce piece having the matted barrel and being a takedown deluxe, etc.  All this has been pointed out already by folks likely to see defects better than I seem to do.  Having qualified my input somewhat, I would suggest your Dad’s valuation is rather accurate.  I would say the rifle is worth somewhere between $8500 on the low side and maybe up to $11,000 on the high side.  Your Dad’s friend was trying to get himself a real bargain in my humble opinion.  Yes, I have a fair collection of 1895’s and no, I do not wish to buy this one at this time, so my opinion is strictly my opinion and not trying to buy it for myself.  Good luck with your sale.  Tim Tomlinson

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Posts: 516
April 15, 2023 - 5:29 am

11sp_QuotePost

tim tomlinson said
Matt,  Based on what I can see in the pictures, it would seem to be in original condition.  However, I am atrocious with pictures as I don’t download them, blow them up, and otherwise manipulate them like some are capable of doing.  It is a rather scarce piece having the matted barrel and being a takedown deluxe, etc.  All this has been pointed out already by folks likely to see defects better than I seem to do.  Having qualified my input somewhat, I would suggest your Dad’s valuation is rather accurate.  I would say the rifle is worth somewhere between $8500 on the low side and maybe up to $11,000 on the high side.  Your Dad’s friend was trying to get himself a real bargain in my humble opinion.  Yes, I have a fair collection of 1895’s and no, I do not wish to buy this one at this time, so my opinion is strictly my opinion and not trying to buy it for myself.  Good luck with your sale.  Tim Tomlinson

  

Matt – Like my friend Tim, I too have owned some 95’s. As near as I can tell from the photos, the only drawback to your gun is the age – just not quite old enough to letter. As there has been such an increase in fakery over the years, especially with the valuable guns, many collectors have got to the point where they just will not buy guns where configuration and features cannot be verified. As I said in my first post about your gun, I think it is right but would not want to pursue purchase without having it in my lap. Just so you know I am retired from serious collecting and have just kept a few so like Tim, I am not looking to buy your gun. I am actually in awe of your gun and do not want you to sell yourself short on its value. I actually think it is a little higher value gun than Tim does basically because where are you going to get another one! When I downsized and sold off most of my collection, the 95’s were the hardest to sell. Model 95’s have always been less desirable and harder to sell than other models. I think this gun needs to go to some good gun shows and let some serious collectors look it over. Don’t get in a hurry – good Winchesters are desirable and increasing in value.

  • Model 95’s with deluxe features, especially as many features as this one are very rare – most 95’s were just plain Jane Winchesters.
  • A matted barrel on any model Winchester is very, very rare.
  • The takedown feature on a Model 95 is very rare.
  • Deluxe grain walnut with checkering was not common. The Madis book says special wood was found on 1 in 900 guns.
  • A factory pad on a Model 95 is very rare, especially in a caliber other than .35 or .405.
  • The Lyman receiver sight is desirable for collectors in any model, including the 1895.
  • The 30-03 caliber was only available in catalogs for a short time and is quite scarce – especially when combined with so many special order features. By the time this particular gun was manufactured the 30-03 was special order.
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Wyoming - Gods Country
Posts: 1267
April 15, 2023 - 2:55 pm

12sp_QuotePost

I also agree this is a fairly scarce rifle to have, with all the features mentioned and what appears to be honest, above average condition. A matted barrel aways puts them in another category. One option I haven’t heard mentioned is the fact that is has no rear sight slot. This is rare and pretty much solidifies the Lyman 21 sights originality to the rifle. 

Although I very much respect the others opinions on the recoil pad, this would be the toughest item for me as a buyer to confirm and accept as factory original. I’ve never owned a Winchester with a factory pad, so I would want someone very familiar with them to confirm this is correct. Even if added later, you still have a fantastic 1895, but it would certainly shift the value much lower for purist collectors. 

Thanks for sharing your rifle with the group, Matt. Very impressive. 

                                                                               ~Gary~

                                                                                                                                                                              94-SRR.jpg

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Kingston, WA
Posts: 10608
April 15, 2023 - 5:39 pm

13sp_QuotePost

I strongly disagree with the quoted assertion/statement below.  In my travels, I have encountered many hundreds of them, and I once knew an individual collector that had more than 400 Take Down Model 1895 rifles in his collection.  He was mistakenly under the impression that the information published by G. Madis (only 800 take downs manufactured) was accurate.  While I do not have a definitive number, I would be willing to bet that the Winchester manufactured at least 5 – 6 thousand Take Down Model 1895 rifles.

The takedown feature on a Model 95 is very rare.

WACA 6571L, Historian & Board of Director Member
High-walls-1-002-C-reduced2.jpg

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Posts: 955
April 16, 2023 - 1:45 pm

14sp_QuotePost

I agree with Bert on Take Down 1895s and I would not be surprised if we learn someday that 5-6 thousand is an underestimate.  Also, .30-03 is listed with the rest of the Model 1895 cartridges through at least the 1918 WRACo catalog and I think it’s a standard when this rifle was manufactured.   

1918-Catalog-81-page-28.jpgImage Enlarger

A matted barrel is found less than 20 times in the first 59999 serial numbers according to Record’s Office warehouse ledger research that we published in the 1895 book.

Not sure if this question in the original post was answered yet, but no, not all “deluxes” are take down.

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Regards

Brad Dunbar

http://1895book.com/

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Posts: 516
April 16, 2023 - 5:42 pm

15sp_QuotePost

Brad Dunbar said
I agree with Bert on Take Down 1895s and I would not be surprised if we learn someday that 5-6 thousand is an underestimate.  Also, .30-03 is listed with the rest of the Model 1895 cartridges through at least the 1918 WRACo catalog and I think it’s a standard when this rifle was manufactured.   

1918-Catalog-81-page-28.jpgImage Enlarger

A matted barrel is found less than 20 times in the first 59999 serial numbers according to Record’s Office warehouse ledger research that we published in the 1895 book.

Not sure if this question in the original post was answered yet, but no, not all “deluxes” are take down.

  

It appears Madis had it wrong regarding the numbers of guns and the rarity of some of the features. All of the “bullets” in my previous post were taken from various places in the Model 1895 section of the Madis Book. After evaluating the photos do you have an opinion regarding the originality of the gun, especially the pad which to me is the only feature which at this point I don’t feel comfortable about? Even if some of the features are not as rare as Madis claimed when you put them all in the same gun it becomes pretty special. Too bad it is too late to letter!

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Northern edge of the D/FW Metromess
Posts: 4863
April 16, 2023 - 10:35 pm

16sp_QuotePost

Bert H. said
I strongly disagree with the quoted assertion/statement below.  In my travels, I have encountered many hundreds of them, and I once knew an individual collector that had more than 400 Take Down Model 1895 rifles in his collection.  He was mistakenly under the impression that the information published by G. Madis (only 800 take downs manufactured) was accurate.  While I do not have a definitive number, I would be willing to bet that the Winchester manufactured at least 5 – 6 thousand Take Down Model 1895 rifles.

The takedown feature on a Model 95 is very rare.

  

It’s quite possible Madis may have used relatively small sections of the ledgers to compile his relative “rarity” numbers. On top of triggering small sample errors he likely missed the clusters of unusual specimens that more recent surveys have found. I’ve learned to disregard these areas of this otherwise excellent book.

 

 

Mike

Life Member TSRA, Endowment Member NRA
BBHC Member, TGCA Member
Smokeless powder is a passing fad! -Steve Garbe
I hate rude behavior in a man. I won't tolerate it. -Woodrow F. Call, Lonesome Dove
Some of my favorite recipes start out with a handful of depleted counterbalance devices.-TXGunNut
Presbyopia be damned, I'm going to shoot this thing! -TXGunNut
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Posts: 541
April 17, 2023 - 10:27 pm

17sp_QuotePost

Far be it for me to intervein in all this, but I would like to say, that from what I’ve seen of this rifle I like it. I would be happy to have it included in my little collection of lever guns.  BTW, I remember about 30 years ago when I was becoming  a Winchester enthusiast, I was told by an older collector /seller that  the first thing I needed to do was find myself a copy of the Madis book. Funny. 

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Northern edge of the D/FW Metromess
Posts: 4863
April 18, 2023 - 2:14 am

18sp_QuotePost

oldcrankyyankee said
Far be it for me to intervein in all this, but I would like to say, that from what I’ve seen of this rifle I like it. I would be happy to have it included in my little collection of lever guns.  BTW, I remember about 30 years ago when I was becoming  a Winchester enthusiast, I was told by an older collector /seller that  the first thing I needed to do was find myself a copy of the Madis book. Funny. 

  

I’d be tickled to own this 1895 too, even though I’m certainly not an 1895 collector. Matt’s dad had a good eye for Winchesters. I believe your older collector fan is still correct, any serious collector’s reference library should contain Madis’ “ The Winchester Book” in my humble opinion. 

 

Mike

Life Member TSRA, Endowment Member NRA
BBHC Member, TGCA Member
Smokeless powder is a passing fad! -Steve Garbe
I hate rude behavior in a man. I won't tolerate it. -Woodrow F. Call, Lonesome Dove
Some of my favorite recipes start out with a handful of depleted counterbalance devices.-TXGunNut
Presbyopia be damned, I'm going to shoot this thing! -TXGunNut
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Posts: 5
April 24, 2023 - 11:22 pm

19sp_QuotePost

Thanks everyone for all of the additional information. I appreciate each person taking the time to look and post…having been a member of other online firearm forums, I know how valuable the knowledge of the experts and folks that have spent lots of time collecting, researching, and enjoying the guns in question. It is super cool to have an online forum to discuss stuff like this. 

Since I had a table, I took the rifle to a local gun show over the weekend, not to sell, but to see who stopped, offered their opinions, and wanted to discuss the gun. It was a much smaller audience, but the folks I talked to at the gun show echoed pretty much what was discussed here. I did see some other 1895s for sale at the show, but all were different calibers and none of them were takedown or had the upgraded wood/butt pad/lyman sight/matted barrel. 

It looks like you can pick up the latest printing of the Madis Winchester book pretty cheap, so will order that one. I will still also be on the lookout for one of the Kassab & Dunbar 1895 books as well…as long as it isn’t $550. Confused

Thanks again to all who responded and when I have time I will share some other Winchesters that my dad had in his collection. 

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Ohio
Posts: 383
April 26, 2023 - 10:12 pm

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