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Nevada Paul said
With all the known ‘fakery’ surrounding Winchesters in particular, I think there is now reason for doubt about authenticity for everything on the market, even in the lower price ranges. I can say for certain that ‘doubt about authenticity’ has caused me to essentially stop buying on Gunbroker and other auction sites.
Sure, if you’ve got to have near-mint guns or those with very rare features. But for the multitude of “used but not abused” guns, those aren’t the ones you have to worry about; & they’re a damn sight cheaper, too! Guns in the latter category may have had some part replaced because it broke or wore out, but that’s not fakery, & it’s usually not hard to detect, unless you’re buying from photos alone with no hands-on inspection.
Larry Wilson wrote letters too. But we all know where he ended up. Kopec writes excellent and honest letters. Some did not.
clarence said
Nevada Paul said
With all the known ‘fakery’ surrounding Winchesters in particular, I think there is now reason for doubt about authenticity for everything on the market, even in the lower price ranges. I can say for certain that ‘doubt about authenticity’ has caused me to essentially stop buying on Gunbroker and other auction sites.
Sure, if you’ve got to have near-mint guns or those with very rare features. But for the multitude of “used but not abused” guns, those aren’t the ones you have to worry about; & they’re a damn sight cheaper, too! Guns in the latter category may have had some part replaced because it broke or wore out, but that’s not fakery, & it’s usually not hard to detect, unless you’re buying from photos alone with no hands-on inspection.
But for the multitude of “used but not abused” guns, those aren’t the ones you have to worry about
I’m not sure I agree totally with that, Clarence. I’ve seen modifications of some ‘brown guns’ which were then offered as ‘authentic and original’.
Nevada Paul
Life Member NRA
I hang out at 2 Auction Houses. 2 employees work for each of the 2 houses doing descriptions. You wouldn’t believe the amount of messed up stuff that comes to these auction houses that has to be sold. When they get a large consignment they can’t pick and choose what they will take unless it may be illegal. Condition plays no part in the fakery. Auction houses don’t fake the guns but the consignors do. The experts that work for or hang out do try to fix what they can. You wouldn’t believe how many gun parts are swapped around trying to make a more correct gun if the parts are available. Sometimes on a valuable gun parts are even bought by the House. The description writers are paid employees who work within the guidelines set by the House.
https://news.artnet.com/market/protection-from-legal-claims-for-art-experts-29980
The foregoing may be a little heavy for laity but it is a good review of the relevant legal aspects of the issue before us. It was published in 2013 so should not be taken as the Gospel [relied on as current law, without bringing it to date] but it’s a good starting place.
One thing I took from the article was, it would be a very good idea for a suspicious would-be buyer to select the expert and insist the seller join him in contractually giving the expert a no-sue promise if the opinion turns out to be bad juju. That he won’t just proves the hit dog howls.
If I owned a real unicorn, I’d already have invested in the written opinion of a reputable expert I that could show, which takes large amounts of persuasion and dollars, including the absence of any promise by me to idemnify the expert should he get sued by a third party. That alone would jack up the offering price to excruciating. (My definition of “reputable” means “well known” plus “not anybody’s dog who wants to hunt.”)
Another thing to know, unrelated to the article, is one necessary element of a case of libel or slander is publication. If the claimed false and defamatory statement — e.g. telling the seller to his face he is Fagin reincarnate, is not disseminated publicly there is no case. Practical application: If you privately hire an expert, don’t have his opinion reduced to writing if it’s unfavorable, walk away from the gun in silence, and keep your mouth shut. My favorite Mexican proverb, translated, is “Flies don’t get into a closed mouth.” This doesn’t do a thing for your fellow collectors but you are not the World’s Policeman. That doesn’t mean you can’t say you just didn’t like the gun and those who know you well enough can figure it out. Defamation claims are not the only potential causes of action but it still looks like a pretty good idea.
The big risk to a high-dollar faker is he will someday sell a provably funny gun to a john who has the means and determination to ruin him and send him to Club Fed and does so because the john is really, really mad. As has happened, from time to time.
Low dollar faking is apparently safer. As a [fictional] criminal lawyer of my acquaintance once wrote, “Crime pays but only a little at a time.”
- Bill
WACA # 65205; life member, NRA; member, TGCA; member, TSRA; amateur preservationist
"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.
I can’t speak as eloquently as most of you, but my simple yankee take on this is know your guns as best you can. And when you don’t ask others, get some opinions. This S#&* of fakery is not going away! I predict it will only get worse as more people become interested in collecting anything. Case in point I called a large auction house out about a gun recently and they did their best to diffuse the situation and tell me I didn’t know what I was talking about, maybe not, but when I put it forward here, I was found to be correct by folks that are smarter than myself. Never think you know it all, and don’t be afraid to ask. I learn every day about this crazy addiction we all possess.
Tom, I don’t know what you call eloquent but “Never think you know it all and don’t be afraid to ask” gets it done in pithy Downeast style.
Southerners break things more gently but you have to know the code to understand them, which can be at least confusing, if not irritating, to the uninitiated:
For example, calling someone “smart” is not necessarily a compliment, depending on tone of voice and facial expression. “Why, he’s a real smart fellow.” can be a deadly insult.
The response “Bless your heart!” can contain the silent conjunctive “but you’re a $%#@ moron.”
Yankee directness can save a lot of money, time, and trouble in the collecting game.
- Bill
WACA # 65205; life member, NRA; member, TGCA; member, TSRA; amateur preservationist
"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.
Zebulon said
Tom, I don’t know what you call eloquent but “Never think you know it all and don’t be afraid to ask” gets it done in pithy Downeast style.Southerners break things more gently but you have to know the code to understand them, which can be at least confusing, if not irritating, to the uninitiated:
For example, calling someone “smart” is not necessarily a compliment, depending on tone of voice and facial expression. “Why, he’s a real smart fellow.” can be a deadly insult.
The response “Bless your heart!” can contain the silent conjunctive “but you’re a $%#@ moron.”
Yankee directness can save a lot of money, time, and trouble in the collecting game.
Some times things just need to be said in a way that there is no chance for misunderstanding. Of course it gets me in trouble a fair amount in todays day and age.
November 7, 2015
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oldcrankyyankee said
Zebulon said
Tom, I don’t know what you call eloquent but “Never think you know it all and don’t be afraid to ask” gets it done in pithy Downeast style.
Southerners break things more gently but you have to know the code to understand them, which can be at least confusing, if not irritating, to the uninitiated:
For example, calling someone “smart” is not necessarily a compliment, depending on tone of voice and facial expression. “Why, he’s a real smart fellow.” can be a deadly insult.
The response “Bless your heart!” can contain the silent conjunctive “but you’re a $%#@ moron.”
Yankee directness can save a lot of money, time, and trouble in the collecting game.
Some times things just need to be said in a way that there is no chance for misunderstanding. Of course it gets me in trouble a fair amount in todays day and age.
Agreed, an unadulterated dose of reality can be painful for some folks.
Mike
Like your uninvited visitor who spoke little English but did entendió “Colt 45″ muy bien!
- Bill
WACA # 65205; life member, NRA; member, TGCA; member, TSRA; amateur preservationist
"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.
November 7, 2015
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Zebulon said
Like your uninvited visitor who spoke little English but did entendió “Colt 45″ muy bien!
Bill-
I’m still cleaning up the mess he helped make, I just work at it an hour or two at a time if I have time before it gets hot. I believe I have hired a key subcontractor, may get my precious Winchesters and reference books home sometime in October!
Mike
This heat is nothing to ignore. We’ve got new vanities being delivered this week and I’ve had to start moving about 500 board feet of stacked and stickered rough oak boards, 8′ to 14′ long 4/4 and 6/4 stock, from my garage/shop to our covered patio, to make floor space available for the pallets that are coming. Got about half of it done early this morning, on the first day I’ve felt almost normal. I won’t try to go back out until dark to get the rest moved.
That’s one thing you can say for a big bore revolver that an automatic can’t match. In addition to a muzzle that appears to those on the wrong end to be a one-way portal to Eternity, the several truncated cone warheads visible from that end can be awe-inspiring and docility-encouraging to even brains ravaged by drugs and alcohol. I’m convinced the only thing more intimidating is the sharp end of a hard-chromed Winchester riot gun. But to each their own…
- Bill
WACA # 65205; life member, NRA; member, TGCA; member, TSRA; amateur preservationist
"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.
Bo Rich said
It just seems odd to me that someone would fake a Model 70 in .38-55. It is so unusual that you would think that the Collector who would buy it would go over it with a fine tooth comb before he would shell out his hard earned money. I am not saying that the gun is right or wrong. Like I said earlier I would have to examine it before I came up with a conclusion.
Most of us don’t relate to this – but not everyone’s money is hard earned. That could explain why someone else would act differently than I do.
Bo, I think the problem is not so much a failure to inspect closely for collectors interested enough and heeled enough to consider buying such an apparently rare bird as a 38-55 caliber Model 70, but, as Lou has said, the fakers get better every year and it gets harder and harder to find clues indicating fraud.
These things are far out of my league, both financially and having any interest in owning one. I just have so little desire to own un-shootable specimens or the entire range of calibers of a given model, that I can’t get my head around why anybody would even want a 38-55 bolt action rifle. To me, it would be like owning a dead cat that had two tails — interesting for five minutes.
I suppose I’m exposing my blue collar roots but, as much as I love the Winchesters I couldn’t ever hope to see under our Christmas trees of the Fifties, if one of them should ever come to hand in stone NIB condition…. it would very soon never be “unfired” again. And the Hawaian Good Luck sign to those inclined to lecture me about it.
But that’s just me. I’ll be happy to marvel at anybody’s menagerie of two-tailed cats. As long as they play with them.
- Bill
WACA # 65205; life member, NRA; member, TGCA; member, TSRA; amateur preservationist
"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.
steve004 said Most of us don’t relate to this – but not everyone’s money is hard earned.
I’d venture to speculate “hard earned’ probably doesn’t apply to the city folks who build million $ “rustic camps” around here to occupy for a few weeks each yr; not a few doz, either, but many hundreds of them.
November 7, 2015
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Zebulon said
This heat is nothing to ignore. We’ve got new vanities being delivered this week and I’ve had to start moving about 500 board feet of stacked and stickered rough oak boards, 8′ to 14′ long 4/4 and 6/4 stock, from my garage/shop to our covered patio, to make floor space available for the pallets that are coming. Got about half of it done early this morning, on the first day I’ve felt almost normal. I won’t try to go back out until dark to get the rest moved.That’s one thing you can say for a big bore revolver that an automatic can’t match. In addition to a muzzle that appears to those on the wrong end to be a one-way portal to Eternity, the several truncated cone warheads visible from that end can be awe-inspiring and docility-encouraging to even brains ravaged by drugs and alcohol. I’m convinced the only thing more intimidating is the sharp end of a hard-chromed Winchester riot gun. But to each their own…
Bill-
While I do have a selection of big bore revolvers in the 1873 pattern the social equipment at hand/hip was a Colt Defender but it does feature a bushingless stainless barrel that could very well resemble an abyss in certain situations. All of my more interesting firearms are still in storage, I’ve been carrying my “rough duty” Colt since the tornado. I think the four ominous clicks of a Colt SAA revolver would have been wasted on this youngster. Besides, the El Paso Saddlery holster for these old revolvers was not ordered with concealment in mind. I do have a Winchester Riot Gun (or two) handy but it’s the standard finish. It still looks meaner than a junkyard dog with a headache.
Around here we’ll be within spitting distance of triple digits until sundown so a second shift is not an option. Get some rest, Bill. This heat and that nasty bug might make for a rough day tomorrow if you push it. I have a discreet moving company on speed dial, as we used to say. I’m not afraid to call them, either!
Mike
Both are EDC guns, bottom is my “rough duty” gun. Antique ivory grips earned the upper gun a trip to an undisclosed location until my home is repaired.
Zebulon said
Bo, I think the problem is not so much a failure to inspect closely for collectors interested enough and heeled enough to consider buying such an apparently rare bird as a 38-55 caliber Model 70, but, as Lou has said, the fakers get better every year and it gets harder and harder to find clues indicating fraud.These things are far out of my league, both financially and having any interest in owning one. I just have so little desire to own un-shootable specimens or the entire range of calibers of a given model, that I can’t get my head around why anybody would even want a 38-55 bolt action rifle. To me, it would be like owning a dead cat that had two tails — interesting for five minutes.
I suppose I’m exposing my blue collar roots but, as much as I love the Winchesters I couldn’t ever hope to see under our Christmas trees of the Fifties, if one of them should ever come to hand in stone NIB condition…. it would very soon never be “unfired” again. And the Hawaian Good Luck sign to those inclined to lecture me about it.
But that’s just me. I’ll be happy to marvel at anybody’s menagerie of two-tailed cats. As long as they play with them.
I had a Remington-Lee Sporter once in .38-55. What i really wanted was one in .38-72. Once, I passed up a, “minty” .405 (with a bolt peep). I came to regret that. Kind of neat that Remington chambered some Winchester calibers in a bolt action rifle.
TXGunNut said
Zebulon said
This heat is nothing to ignore. We’ve got new vanities being delivered this week and I’ve had to start moving about 500 board feet of stacked and stickered rough oak boards, 8′ to 14′ long 4/4 and 6/4 stock, from my garage/shop to our covered patio, to make floor space available for the pallets that are coming. Got about half of it done early this morning, on the first day I’ve felt almost normal. I won’t try to go back out until dark to get the rest moved.
That’s one thing you can say for a big bore revolver that an automatic can’t match. In addition to a muzzle that appears to those on the wrong end to be a one-way portal to Eternity, the several truncated cone warheads visible from that end can be awe-inspiring and docility-encouraging to even brains ravaged by drugs and alcohol. I’m convinced the only thing more intimidating is the sharp end of a hard-chromed Winchester riot gun. But to each their own…
Bill-
While I do have a selection of big bore revolvers in the 1873 pattern the social equipment at hand/hip was a Colt Defender but it does feature a bushingless stainless barrel that could very well resemble an abyss in certain situations. All of my more interesting firearms are still in storage, I’ve been carrying my “rough duty” Colt since the tornado. I think the four ominous clicks of a Colt SAA revolver would have been wasted on this youngster. Besides, the El Paso Saddlery holster for these old revolvers was not ordered with concealment in mind. I do have a Winchester Riot Gun (or two) handy but it’s the standard finish. It still looks meaner than a junkyard dog with a headache.
Around here we’ll be within spitting distance of triple digits until sundown so a second shift is not an option. Get some rest, Bill. This heat and that nasty bug might make for a rough day tomorrow if you push it. I have a discreet moving company on speed dial, as we used to say. I’m not afraid to call them, either!
Mike
Both are EDC guns, bottom is my “rough duty” gun. Antique ivory grips earned the upper gun a trip to an undisclosed location until my home is repaired.
Mike that’s a nice pair of rodent dispatcher’s you got there. I love the sound of a 45acp slide racking home.
November 7, 2015
Offline
steve004 said
Bo Rich said
It just seems odd to me that someone would fake a Model 70 in .38-55. It is so unusual that you would think that the Collector who would buy it would go over it with a fine tooth comb before he would shell out his hard earned money. I am not saying that the gun is right or wrong. Like I said earlier I would have to examine it before I came up with a conclusion.
Most of us don’t relate to this – but not everyone’s money is hard earned. That could explain why someone else would act differently than I do.
I enjoy offerings like this one much as I enjoyed my early gun show days (early 80’s) with little more than the price of admission in my wallet. I learned quite a bit in those days because I was unfettered by the distractions of buy/sell possibilities. As a pretty serious comp shooter at the time I spent all my hard earned money on powder, primers and bullets.
I’ll never be a player in this ballpark but that won’t keep me from enjoying the show.
Mike
Online
Zebulon said
Bo, I think the problem is not so much a failure to inspect closely for collectors interested enough and heeled enough to consider buying such an apparently rare bird as a 38-55 caliber Model 70, but, as Lou has said, the fakers get better every year and it gets harder and harder to find clues indicating fraud.These things are far out of my league, both financially and having any interest in owning one. I just have so little desire to own un-shootable specimens or the entire range of calibers of a given model, that I can’t get my head around why anybody would even want a 38-55 bolt action rifle. To me, it would be like owning a dead cat that had two tails — interesting for five minutes.
I suppose I’m exposing my blue collar roots but, as much as I love the Winchesters I couldn’t ever hope to see under our Christmas trees of the Fifties, if one of them should ever come to hand in stone NIB condition…. it would very soon never be “unfired” again. And the Hawaian Good Luck sign to those inclined to lecture me about it.
But that’s just me. I’ll be happy to marvel at anybody’s menagerie of two-tailed cats. As long as they play with them.
I don’t even think the faking needs to be that good. All you need is a big name auction house to write a good description and a few deep pocket individuals wanting that one of a kind object. They don’t have time to scrutinize it, they spend their time earning money, not worrying about a few idiosyncrasies when it comes to a Winchester rifle.
I think a good proportion of the Wes Adams collection might have been composed of firearms like this one. With deep pockets, amazing firearms found their way to him, some of which were built to attract his deep pockets not too long previously.
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