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Bert H. said
Don,
I do not believe that letterable vs. non-letterable makes much difference other than the cost of the letter itself… e.g, Model 1894 serial number 353999 with a factory letter might bring an extra $50 – $100 over serial number 354000.
Bert
If I bought s/n 354000, how do I known Winchester built my gun as a standard 30wcf round barrel or a fancy 38-55 octagon? T/R
Old Guns said
The older a Parker is usually the less it is worth. Parkers and similar shotguns are a completely different ballgame. Winchesters have history. Parkers do not.
It’s worth less if it has Damascus barrels or external hammers, because the folks paying big money for Parkers, Ithicas, Smiths, & of course Model 21s, want them to shoot, not decorate their walls. (That’s not ME for sure–I discovered long ago that moving targets exceeded my skills!)
Hard to see why deer hunting would be more “historical” than duck, quail, etc., hunting. Hunting elk & mountain sheep may be more exciting than bird hunting, but that’s a different consideration from being “historical.” The history of upland bird & waterfowl hunting is recorded in thousands of books & pictures produced by the most eminent names in sporting art & literature. Visit any art gallery or museum dedicated to sporting art or waterfowl decoys & you’ll see what I mean.
TR said
If I bought s/n 354000, how do I known Winchester built my gun as a standard 30wcf round barrel or a fancy 38-55 octagon? T/R
Based on your question, it appears that you either do not have the requisite knowledge to evaluate serial number 354000, or that you are simply going to discount every single Winchester that cannot be lettered. Having a factory letter (or the opportunity to acquire one) does not guaranty that the gun in question is factory original (use Selling Dad’s Old Guns as an example). If I had a $1 for every fake factory letter out there, my collection would be significantly larger than it is…
Again, in my opinion, just because you can or cannot letter a particular Winchester serial number does not add a premium to the value beyond the cost of the letter. In the example I gave in my earlier response in this topic, both serial numbers are by law “modern” firearms, and both must be treated identically in regards to sale, transfer, and shipping.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Bert H. said
Based on your question, it appears that you either do not have the requisite knowledge to evaluate serial number 354000, or that you are simply going to discount every single Winchester that cannot be lettered. Having a factory letter (or the opportunity to acquire one) does not guaranty that the gun in question is factory original (use Selling Dad’s Old Guns as an example). If I had a $1 for every fake factory letter out there, my collection would be significantly larger than it is…
Again, in my opinion, just because you can or cannot letter a particular Winchester serial number does not add a premium to the value beyond the cost of the letter. In the example I gave in my earlier response in this topic, both serial numbers are by law “modern” firearms, and both must be treated identically in regards to sale, transfer, and shipping.
Bert
Just to expand on Bert’s comments, I copied this reply a while back & refer to it from time to time. I can’t remember who wrote it.
“The over-importance placed by many on verification of sights & options etc by a factory letter, prevents them from exercising their common sense. For them, if it’s not written in black & white, it doesn’t exist–even though it’s well known that the clerks writing down this kind of info often just “didn’t bother” whether from overworked, too lazy that day, or whatever.”
Food for thought.
AG
1894’s in that serial number range, very often the parts interchange with no fitting. You screw one barrel off and another on, if you keep the barrel and tube together you only have to match the receiver blue. Wood can be swapped, assembly numbers changed, lower tangs traded for pistol grip type, and you have a deluxe. I have owned 94 deluxe guns that I never new for sure Winchester built them or the guy I bought it from did. In the era of the flaking blue it was quite common to up grade a gun by swapping receivers. Upgrading non letter-able 94s has been the cash cow of many dealers for years. These guns are out there and the parts and finish is original, you use donor guns. This is why I stopped buying non letter-able deluxe 94s, at least with a letter-able one I know the receiver was original. Can you image what you can create with a restored gun, especially if the serial number has been re-stamped. T/R
TR said
1894’s in that serial number range, very often the parts interchange with no fitting. You screw one barrel off and another on, if you keep the barrel and tube together you only have to match the receiver blue. Wood can be swapped, assembly numbers changed, lower tangs traded for pistol grip type, and you have a deluxe. I have owned 94 deluxe guns that I never new for sure Winchester built them or the guy I bought it from did. In the era of the flaking blue it was quite common to up grade a gun by swapping receivers. Upgrading non letter-able 94s has been the cash cow of many dealers for years. These guns are out there and the parts and finish is original, you use donor guns. This is why I stopped buying non letter-able deluxe 94s, at least with a letter-able one I know the receiver was original. Can you image what you can create with a restored gun, especially if the serial number has been re-stamped. T/R
Can’t argue that T/R & like I said previously, I try not to get hung up on letters, but it’s a bonus. It’s confirmation, not added value to me.
AG
Follow up: This thread was created because I was seeking advice on a fine side by side shotgun manufactured in Meriden, Connecticut that might be offered for sale to me by a friend of mine. I have a working knowledge of this make, but not nearly as extensive as with Colts and Winchesters. I suggested my friend’s shotgun might not be as desirable as a similar one for sale as my friend’s shotgun is not antique and the other one is pre 1899 manufacture.
Okay, I get it that antique status when it comes to shotguns may not exist, which was extremely surprising to me. However, some so called Winchester and Colt “experts” over there said that no pre 1899 premium existed and when presented with this thread, they basically stated they knew more than anyone on this forum and I was told to just “Go away!”
It’s closed minded attitudes like that which suck in today’s day and age. Last time I looked, that crowd is probably more grey haired than this one and they should NOT be discouraging new blood.
What a bunch of unwelcoming snobs/good old boys. Best just to stick with a great forum such as this. Might still purchase a shotgun from my friend, but that’s as far as it will go.
mrcvs said
Follow up: This thread was created because I was seeking advice on a fine side by side shotgun manufactured in Meriden, Connecticut that might be offered for sale to me by a friend of mine. I have a working knowledge of this make, but not nearly as extensive as with Colts and Winchesters.
If you’re talking about a Parker, there’s no shortage of easily accessed info about them, but all you really need to concern yourself with are current values. Only one I ever owned was a hammerless V grade that I bought because of its straight-grip stock, fairly scarce on Parkers. However, I’ve always admired the hammer guns, esp. at the lower prices they usually bring. If you’re not aware of it, there’s an industry devoted to replacing Damascus barrels with new steel ones with faked markings–ask Mr. Chadick to tell you about that, if he’s not in prison.
Bert H. said
Based on your question, it appears that you either do not have the requisite knowledge to evaluate serial number 354000, or that you are simply going to discount every single Winchester that cannot be lettered. Having a factory letter (or the opportunity to acquire one) does not guaranty that the gun in question is factory original (use Selling Dad’s Old Guns as an example). If I had a $1 for every fake factory letter out there, my collection would be significantly larger than it is…
Again, in my opinion, just because you can or cannot letter a particular Winchester serial number does not add a premium to the value beyond the cost of the letter. In the example I gave in my earlier response in this topic, both serial numbers are by law “modern” firearms, and both must be treated identically in regards to sale, transfer, and shipping.
Bert
Bert you totally missed TR’s point. Obviously you don’t know him. Guns that are out of the letter range are some of the most messed with guns out there. You know I was looking at one in 405 recently.
MRCVS, a gun made by or in Meridian is a trade store shotgun. These were made for whichever store wanted their name on them. If you have one in really good shape with exposed hammers, steel barrels and double triggers they are had to find because these are the ones people make their guard guns out of and actually shoot them. I have had a few and they sell easily for around $600.
Clarence, just because it has Damascus or twist barrels that does not mean you can’t or people aren’t shooting them. Have you ever seen a Colt or Winchester hammer shotgun in very nice condition sell? Winchester’s were built in Belgium but are very sought after. You’d be shocked to know what a Colt shotgun that is antique, Damascus barrels, hammer, double triggers is worth. Some are well into the 5 figure range.
Chuck said
Bert H. said
Based on your question, it appears that you either do not have the requisite knowledge to evaluate serial number 354000, or that you are simply going to discount every single Winchester that cannot be lettered. Having a factory letter (or the opportunity to acquire one) does not guaranty that the gun in question is factory original (use Selling Dad’s Old Guns as an example). If I had a $1 for every fake factory letter out there, my collection would be significantly larger than it is…
Again, in my opinion, just because you can or cannot letter a particular Winchester serial number does not add a premium to the value beyond the cost of the letter. In the example I gave in my earlier response in this topic, both serial numbers are by law “modern” firearms, and both must be treated identically in regards to sale, transfer, and shipping.
Bert
Bert you totally missed TR’s point. Obviously you don’t know him. Guns that are out of the letter range are some of the most messed with guns out there. You know I was looking at one in 405 recently.
Chuck,
I do not believe that I missed anything… I simply do not share his views on this topic. My point is this… while a factory letter that matches the gun is nice, it does not add any intrinsic value to the gun. Yes, “non-letterable” Winchesters have been messed with, but so have “letterable” Winchesters. There have been a substantial number of Winchesters “created” to match a factory letter. In the end, it comes down to your ability to critically evaluate any Winchester to determine its originality… whether it can be lettered or not.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Hello all,
I have posted on this matter a number times before and may be in the minority but here are my thoughts again. I think it is money ill spent to pay 15% to 25% more for a rifle that had its serial number stamped on a receiver in later December 1898 versus the first week of January 1899. Because that is what we are really talking about here. The “serialization date is supposedly the “manufacture date” but we all know the full rifle was not assembled for some period of time, and not uncommonly months to years later. And what is the benefit of this premium? The buyer doesn’t have to spend maybe $30 to $75 for an FFL transfer. So on a $6000 a”antique” gun you have forked over $1200 so you don’t have to drive 5 miles and pay $50??? Does that make sense to anyone?
And what is so special about the last day of 1898 regarding the manufacture of the gun. Nothing changed at the factory. It is an arbitrary date pulled out of the air. What happens if that day is changed at some point? What happened to the value all those supposed “antique” rifle that were identified by Madis that then POOF are not antique if you use the polishing room data. But then not all dealer/sellers use the polishing room data. And there are long forum threads trying to figure out just what in the world the ATF uses. Not much of any of this makes a lot of sense to me.
Now for the “letterable vs non letter” valuation. I just had the unenviable experience of telling a guy that the nice looking 1892 SRC that he had was NOT original. I had seen the gun listed some +5 years ago and it was a round barrel sporting rifle in 38 WCF. But now he had it and it was a 44 WCF SRC complete with carbine fore end, butt stock, and staple and ring. The only problem was that the barrel address was on the left side of the barrel instead of the top and the gun was outside the letter range. My guess is that he would have gladly spent some sort of “premium” in value to have had a letter that showed what he bought was the correct configuration. And it was just a plain jane gun but guys pay more for 44 SRC’s than they do for round barrel sporting rifles. A small premium in value for these situations makes more sense that a BUYNCH more for gun so that I can save $50!
Just my opinion
Michael
Model 1892 / Model 61 Collector, Research, Valuation
Those letters do keep people honest and old auction catalogs out the fake. T/R
Chuck said Clarence, just because it has Damascus or twist barrels that does not mean you can’t or people aren’t shooting them. Have you ever seen a Colt or Winchester hammer shotgun in very nice condition sell? Winchester’s were built in Belgium but are very sought after. You’d be shocked to know what a Colt shotgun that is antique, Damascus barrels, hammer, double triggers is worth. Some are well into the 5 figure range.
When he said “Meriden” I immediately thought Parker, but I do know about the other company; I’m surprised their guns now bring $600, although they may be popular among the CAS.
But the folks who may collect & shoot antique Colt & other shotguns, are not the same crowd as the Parker fanciers who want a “modern” gun they can shoot with any ammo & not worry about the barrels coming apart. In reality, that’s probably not a great risk, but Herschel Chaddick (among others, no doubt) once employed 2 or 3 gunsmiths in rebuilding “antique” Damascus barrel guns into “modern” guns, which he wouldn’t have been doing unless his customers were willing to spend more for steel barrels.
TR said
Those letters do keep people honest and old auction catalogs out the fake. T/R
More correctly, a factory letter keeps honest people “honest”. They do not keep the “Fakers” out there from being dishonest. If that were the case, we would not have twice as many 1 of 1000 or 1 of 100 Winchester Model 1873 and 1876 rifles out there. Or as in very recent times, a nearly new Model 1873 Fancy 16-inch SRC for sale by our favorite con-artist. Further, those old catalogs are proof of the treachery that exists with the thieves among us. I really wonder how many fake Winchesters have been built because they had a blueprint (factory letter) ?
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
mrcvs said
I was referencing Parker when I mentioned Meriden.
Is it an “antique”? That is, hammers & Damascus, regardless of DOM.
Bert, I like your wording better than mine. “a factory letter keeps honest people “honest”.” Well said. But what keeps the owner of a non- letterable gun “honest”? Maybe old auction catalogs, Google, surveys, and the Forum. T/R
TR said
Bert, I like your wording better than mine. “a factory letter keeps honest people “honest”.” Well said. But what keeps the owner of a non- letterable gun “honest”? Maybe old auction catalogs, Google, surveys, and the Forum. T/R
Honest people will treat a non letterable Winchester the same as one that can be lettered. Dishonest people are not concerned with a Winchester being letterable or not… they build them anyway.
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
I really like this type of discussion as it is very educational on so many different levels.
Where price and premiums are concerned the Red-Book has established four(?) separate time periods to address this issue. I do think that each time period should reflect a greater difference in estimated values than it does, though.
For example, consider that like new 98+% 1950-60 era Model 94’s are already bringing right at $2000 w/o the box. With this in mind, what would you be willing to pay for one in like condition in the 1920-1940’s era – $4000 to $6000? What about 1899 to 1919 – $6000 to $8000? What about one in like shape that was made in 1894 – 1898 ANTIQUE range?
Since the values in the Red-Book are based on actual sales prices it will reflect a lot of prices that we complain about as being ridiculously high. With this in mind, would we not already be adhering to pricing standards similar to those noted in the above example for the Model 94, where more significant differences can easily be seen in each time period?
James
Bert H. said
Chuck,
I do not believe that I missed anything… I simply do not share his views on this topic. My point is this… while a factory letter that matches the gun is nice, it does not add any intrinsic value to the gun. Yes, “non-letterable” Winchesters have been messed with, but so have “letterable” Winchesters. There have been a substantial number of Winchesters “created” to match a factory letter. In the end, it comes down to your ability to critically evaluate any Winchester to determine its originality… whether it can be lettered or not.
Bert
Bert, I agree with both of you, mostly. You and TR both know who one of my mentors was. I’ve seen guns made to fit a letter, guns made to fit a lower tang and custom guns. I think letters are good to have for several reasons but in this case I know they help sell a gun. For years I bought guns based upon my inspection and never got letters. Your last sentence is the most important.
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