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May 22, 2025
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OK, this is a strange question. Back in 1978, I purchased a used post 64 Winchester 94 from a large Gun store in California. The 94 was part of a set of 6 rifles that had been sold at auction by the State of California. The gun store bid on them and they were now for sale. Nothing special about the rifle that I noticed. I purchased it because it was the only rifle with a saddle ring in the store. It is a good shooter, but definitely has the mystery metal on the receiver that was flaking in places.
Several years after purchase, I received a phone call from the FFL where I purchased the rifle asking if I wanted to trade it in for a new Winchester 94. I was told that it was recently discovered that, when originally purchased by the State, specific pre 64 parts were specified for this run of rifles and that they were now sought after by some collectors. I elected to keep the rifle for sentimental reasons. Several years later, I had occasion to be at the Highway Patrol Weapons Training Unit in Sacramento and the rifle came up in a discussion with a senior gunsmith. He told me that, in the 1960’s-early 70’s they did gunsmith work for various entities within the state and he had also heard about the San Quentin Winchester 94’s. He also wanted to buy the rifle from me as it was unique because of the supposed pre-64 factory installed components.
When I look at the visible parts of the rifle’s action, I cannot see any unique pre-64 components. The lifter is the typical post 64 design and everything else appears like my other post 64 rifle. Has anyone else ever heard about Winchester making special runs post 64? It seems very far fetched, but I know that S&W does this for various govt entities.
April 30, 2023
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Could be possible of course, but I’m skeptical. Sounds like the car dealer sending me leaflets that say my car is in “high demand” and they’re looking to buy!
April 15, 2005
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Can you post or provide pictures of the gun? What is the serial number?
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
May 22, 2025
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Hi Bert,
The serial is31455XX. I still have the paperwork that shows it was part of a State property auction, but no indication of special factory build. Just seems strange that so many folks who don’t know each other appear to know about the “San Quentin Winchesters”.
May 22, 2025
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| Winchester Model 94 30-30 saddle ring carbine SAN QUENTIN STATE PRISON | |||||||||||||||||||||||||
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This was part of the bidding paperwork from the initial sale
You are bidding on a SPECIAL ORDER Winchester model 94 Carbine (w/saddle ring) that was made in 1968 for the CA State Prison System. It is in good condition, 100% original, un-touched and un-cleaned as purchased from the CA Dep’t of Corrections. It shows obvious wear as is to be expected for a gun of this type. Made in 1968 to Dep’t of Corrections specifications, this special order carbine features a SADDLE RING (for securing to the cable on the gantry walk above the prison grounds) as well as a MILLED LIFTER (and associated parts). At some point this rifle sported a plaque or badge on the bottom of the butt-stock (probably a rack number). The plaque is missing, but you can still see the outline of where it was. Included is a letter of authenticity and a photocopy of the State of California bid document which clearly ID’s this gun as having been purchased from San Quentin. This is a rare chance to buy a prison gun with actual provenance. San Quentin is the oldest and one of the most violent prisons in the State of California. Imagine what this rifle has seen in the few short years that it served that institution.. |
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April 15, 2005
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RETHBY said
Hi Bert,The serial is31455XX. I still have the paperwork that shows it was part of a State property auction, but no indication of special factory build. Just seems strange that so many folks who don’t know each other appear to know about the “San Quentin Winchesters”.
The serial number does verify that it was manufactured in 1968. It is very likely that the only “pre-64” parts on it are the saddle ring and stud.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
April 29, 2025
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RETHBY said
Winchester Model 94 30-30 saddle ring carbine SAN QUENTIN STATE PRISON This was part of the bidding paperwork from the initial sale
You are bidding on a SPECIAL ORDER Winchester model 94 Carbine (w/saddle ring) that was made in 1968 for the CA State Prison System.
It is in good condition, 100% original, un-touched and un-cleaned as purchased from the CA Dep’t of Corrections. It shows obvious wear as is to be expected for a gun of this type.
Made in 1968 to Dep’t of Corrections specifications, this special order carbine features a SADDLE RING (for securing to the cable on the gantry walk above the prison grounds) as well as a MILLED LIFTER (and associated parts). At some point this rifle sported a plaque or badge on the bottom of the butt-stock (probably a rack number). The plaque is missing, but you can still see the outline of where it was.
Included is a letter of authenticity and a photocopy of the State of California bid document which clearly ID’s this gun as having been purchased from San Quentin. This is a rare chance to buy a prison gun with actual provenance.
San Quentin is the oldest and one of the most violent prisons in the State of California. Imagine what this rifle has seen in the few short years that it served that institution..
The gun may indeed be a CA Corrections gun, but that language doesn’t sound like it would have been from any CA state documents, more like from an auction trying to sell the gun. If the guns had been owned by CA Corrections they would likely not have been auctioned, but used as trade in’s towards other weapons or equipment to someone like the George Cake Co, F Morton Pitt, Cheshire and Perez, etc..
Is the gun marked anywhere? CDC?
April 29, 2025
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In further checking, a friend who was familiar with the guns, said they were definitely marked, with the institution’s names, rather than just “CDC” as later guns were marked. Dave at Old West Gun room apparently had one in that same late 70’s time frame.
I have a SFPD marked pre 64 model 94, but a San Quentin marked one would be pretty darn cool as well.
November 19, 2006
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UpInTheBigTrees said
RETHBY said
Winchester Model 94 30-30 saddle ring carbine SAN QUENTIN STATE PRISON This was part of the bidding paperwork from the initial sale
You are bidding on a SPECIAL ORDER Winchester model 94 Carbine (w/saddle ring) that was made in 1968 for the CA State Prison System.It is in good condition, 100% original, un-touched and un-cleaned as purchased from the CA Dep’t of Corrections. It shows obvious wear as is to be expected for a gun of this type.
Made in 1968 to Dep’t of Corrections specifications, this special order carbine features a SADDLE RING (for securing to the cable on the gantry walk above the prison grounds) as well as a MILLED LIFTER (and associated parts). At some point this rifle sported a plaque or badge on the bottom of the butt-stock (probably a rack number). The plaque is missing, but you can still see the outline of where it was.
Included is a letter of authenticity and a photocopy of the State of California bid document which clearly ID’s this gun as having been purchased from San Quentin. This is a rare chance to buy a prison gun with actual provenance.
San Quentin is the oldest and one of the most violent prisons in the State of California. Imagine what this rifle has seen in the few short years that it served that institution..
The gun may indeed be a CA Corrections gun, but that language doesn’t sound like it would have been from any CA state documents, more like from an auction trying to sell the gun. If the guns had been owned by CA Corrections they would likely not have been auctioned, but used as trade in’s towards other weapons or equipment to someone like the George Cake Co, F Morton Pitt, Cheshire and Perez, etc..
Is the gun marked anywhere? CDC?
Interesting that your carbine does not have the milled lifter.
August 27, 2024
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Hello,
I know this is an older post, but I just saw it. So, for the record and to end any speculation, the CA prison system did indeed have 94’s in their armory’s that were special ordered with saddle-rings and certain pre-64 features such as forged lifters. At the time, the prison system’s choice of weapons was somewhat haphazard and random, with a lot of mixed rifles including Winchester 70’s, 94’s as well as things like Alpine M1 Carbines and Remington 760’s. They even had a smattering of .22’s for training purposes. Their pistols, while off topic here, were even more random. It appears that excluding a few models, most of their purchasing was decentralized, taking place at the local prison level.
The prison system auctioned off most if not all of their armory in the late 70’s when they underwent a push for standardization. Rather than consolidate their stockpile, they held closed bid auctions at each institution. While over complicating the process, it did make sure that the arms were attributable to specific prisons based on the information in the original bid-sheets. All of the bids were won by the same CA Dealer, Martin B. Retting, Inc. in Culver City, CA. Retting’s worked in partnership with a nationally known Class-3 dealer, who took possession of any NFA items, while Retting’s took the non-NFA guns. The process occurred over several months and involved a lot of travel as it required inspecting the firearm on site before submitting a sealed bid and then removing them later from the Prisons. All in all, several thousand firearms were involved.
Condition on the firearms varied, depending on whether they were Armory stored guns (which received proper service) or firearms stored in secure areas within population, such as towers and gantry walks. The guns held in these secure areas were rarely serviced as moving them back to the armory was a time consuming and very involved process. Most of these were pretty rough.
Having been associated with the now defunct Retting Company for over three decades, I have examined countless prison guns. I can tell you that the arms were not professionally stamped with any CA State markings or the names of any of the individual Prisons. Those that were marked at all, were typically marked in nail polish with the name of the Prison and if they were guns assigned for use (stationed?) inside the wire they often had their location (such as “Tower 3”). There were no rack numbers that I can recall. For some reason, perhaps gallows humor of some type, they tended to use bright and vibrant colors of nail polish, with yellow being popular.
The auction listing text which a few have reposted was one I created for the last of the Quentin guns. It was listed on either Gunbroker or Auction Arms, I don’t recall as it was probably over 15 years ago now.
The only way to verify or confirm whether something was at San Quentin or Folsom is to review the bid sheets by hand, which is a rather involved process as there are thousands of pages worth of records. Please feel free to reach out to me if you have any other questions regarding these and I will try to answer them as best I can. [email protected].
Best regards, Alex
April 15, 2005
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Alex,
Thank you for posting the added clarification information.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
April 30, 2023
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A great example of what insider information can add to a story or situation! Thanks for posting that!
March 31, 2009
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alex_camarillotraders said
Hello,
I know this is an older post, but I just saw it. So, for the record and to end any speculation, the CA prison system did indeed have 94’s in their armory’s that were special ordered with saddle-rings and certain pre-64 features such as forged lifters. At the time, the prison system’s choice of weapons was somewhat haphazard and random, with a lot of mixed rifles including Winchester 70’s, 94’s as well as things like Alpine M1 Carbines and Remington 760’s. They even had a smattering of .22’s for training purposes. Their pistols, while off topic here, were even more random. It appears that excluding a few models, most of their purchasing was decentralized, taking place at the local prison level.
The prison system auctioned off most if not all of their armory in the late 70’s when they underwent a push for standardization. Rather than consolidate their stockpile, they held closed bid auctions at each institution. While over complicating the process, it did make sure that the arms were attributable to specific prisons based on the information in the original bid-sheets. All of the bids were won by the same CA Dealer, Martin B. Retting, Inc. in Culver City, CA. Retting’s worked in partnership with a nationally known Class-3 dealer, who took possession of any NFA items, while Retting’s took the non-NFA guns. The process occurred over several months and involved a lot of travel as it required inspecting the firearm on site before submitting a sealed bid and then removing them later from the Prisons. All in all, several thousand firearms were involved.
Condition on the firearms varied, depending on whether they were Armory stored guns (which received proper service) or firearms stored in secure areas within population, such as towers and gantry walks. The guns held in these secure areas were rarely serviced as moving them back to the armory was a time consuming and very involved process. Most of these were pretty rough.
Having been associated with the now defunct Retting Company for over three decades, I have examined countless prison guns. I can tell you that the arms were not professionally stamped with any CA State markings or the names of any of the individual Prisons. Those that were marked at all, were typically marked in nail polish with the name of the Prison and if they were guns assigned for use (stationed?) inside the wire they often had their location (such as “Tower 3”). There were no rack numbers that I can recall. For some reason, perhaps gallows humor of some type, they tended to use bright and vibrant colors of nail polish, with yellow being popular.
The auction listing text which a few have reposted was one I created for the last of the Quentin guns. It was listed on either Gunbroker or Auction Arms, I don’t recall as it was probably over 15 years ago now.
The only way to verify or confirm whether something was at San Quentin or Folsom is to review the bid sheets by hand, which is a rather involved process as there are thousands of pages worth of records. Please feel free to reach out to me if you have any other questions regarding these and I will try to answer them as best I can. [email protected].
Best regards, Alex
I always liked going into Retting’s shop. There was always a lot of used guns to look at. Also there was 2 other shops within a couple of blocks.
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