I didn’t mean to drag this thread so far from the OP’s original topic – consideration of the post-63 Winchester Model 70, in particular the target models.  I think we can all agree collector associations of any kind depend for their longevity on at least a gradual influx of new members.

From surveying past editions of the Winchester Collector journal, it’s obvious (to me, anyway) the vast majority of WACA members are those devoted to the products of the Winchester Repeating Arms Company, in its various corporate forms, from inception to 1963, with a fringe willing to accept – or at least take some interest in – the products of WRA from 1964 until the divestiture of its gunmaking manufacturing arm at the end of 1980. 

This likely has a lot to do with the progressing average age of the membership, although I can’t prove it.  It’s still hard for me to realize that an ever-increasing number of potential members became interested in our hobby long after 1964.  Some of the older ones were perhaps first introduced to the Winchester brand by clerks who showed them a 1968 Model 70 side by side with, say, a Remington 700BDL, a Ruger 77, SAKO Forrester, or an FN Browning Hi Power. To us, it must still seem strange that Winchester sold more Model 70 rifles post-64 until 1980 than before 1964, but enough customers bought them to make this so. 

The younger ones, on the other hand, may have seen their first Winchester 70 after it had been returned to a controlled feed action or — even more recently — had become a multi-sourced global product under the aegis of Fabrique Nationale.  I had my hands on one of these last year and they are very high quality rifles.  If I were a 22 year-old deer hunter and bought one, I would hope to be welcomed with open arms to WACA.  We need these young folk and need to do more than just accept them – we should seek them out and try to keep them from being a “stranger in a strange land.” 

Others may disagree, honestly believing the finite number of 186? – 1963 specimens in collectible condition should remain essentially the sole focus of the organization, to preserve their history and value, as they become more rare through attrition.  Perhaps, but that begins to take on the slightest overtones of a religion faced with the usual problems of a declining membership as the elders fall off the twig, and an ever diminishing pool of acolytes. 

Anyway, that’s my 2 cents..

“Others may disagree, honestly believing the finite number of 186? – 1963 specimens in collectible condition should remain essentially the sole focus of the organization, to preserve their history and value, as they become more rare through attrition.  Perhaps, but that begins to take on the slightest overtones of a religion faced with the usual problems of a declining membership as the elders fall off the twig, and an ever diminishing pool of acolytes. “

Well said! 

BRP

clarence said

Zebulon said To us, it must still seem strange that Winchester sold more Model 70 rifles post-64 until 1980 than before 1964, but enough customers bought them to make this so. 

Very strange!  Was unaware of this fact–esp surprising, I think, after so much bad press in ’64.

  

As astounding as it may seem, gun manufacturers do not regard you and me as exemplars of the gun buying public. The events of 1964 proved this point nicely. 

Olin didn’t ditch post 63 Winchester guns because they were hopelessly unprofitable. The spin-off occurred because John Olin loathed labor unions generally – and the IMU specifically – to the point of popped facial veins.  

Price and margin matter and the cost savings gained by WRA commercial gun department’s manufacturing changes of 1964 enabled the company to hold the prices of its products to competitive levels and actually turn some modest profit on gun sales.  And they sold enough of those despised guns at profitable prices to survive and make improvements.  

Somebody bought a lot of 64-80 WRA guns. I speculate  1968-1980 sales were the lion’s share of it. The stylish new Featherweight and the 9422 went a long way to rehabilitate the Winchester brand’s reputation for quality. The 9422 was a really big hit locally and I remember being amazed it was a Winchester when I picked one up to examine. 

The 9422 is very collectible, judging from prices on those with condition. And I wouldn’t be amazed if some of the Miroku built, scarcer Winchesters don’t gain a following of younger enthusiasts. Some of those are just too handsome and functional to shun,  Heresy? Maybe, but they can make great placeholders in a traditional collection. 

At the risk of being burned at the stake, the two smoothest (and only remaining) .pump shotguns in my modest collection are a Miroku Model 12 and 42, both Browning branded.  I’ve owned several high condition field grade pre-64 Winchester Model 12s over the years and these two reproductions are superior in fit, function and finish.  Both are comparable to several Pigeon Grade Model 12s I’ve examined, in quality of finish and function (but not wood grade.) That is not to denigrate the WRA guns on which these reproductions are based, but it does convince me that Miroku builds a first class, fully comparable gun. 

I merely suggest we make the tent big enough for Winchester fans who were never scarred by the events of 1964.

Hi Zeb (Bill)-

While I only collect pre-64 Winchesters (Model 70s) and don’t own a single post-63 Winchester, I completely agree with your comments about making room in the tent for younger generations of Winchester fans whose interests lie in the newer “Winchester” products. 

There seem to be a lot of them out there…  As one of the folks who gets to field (Model 70) questions coming in via the “Contact” portal on this website or by phone call to Heather Martin, I can say that at least 75% of them are about post-63 Olin or USRACo or FN/BACO rifles.  I’m sure Bert has a similar experience (even more so) with the Model 94s.  Model 94 Angle Eject carbines are not pre-64 Winchesters, but they sure as heck are popular…

In reference to the Model 70, it’s frustrating to me that I often cannot provide satisfactory answers to the post-63 inquiries.  The last chapter in Roger Rule’s book, which covers 1964-1981 Model 70s, is pretty good.  But that’s the extent of what I “know” about them.  Nobody seems to have accurate production data on the USRACo products, and while FN/Browning apparently does have DOM information on their products, it seems that it depends on who answers the phone when people call them with questions.  Often as not they simply refer callers to the “Winchester Arms Collectors Association”…  

Every now and then (it’s happened a couple times recently), someone asking me about a post-63 Model 70 has ended up joining WACA… Whether or not they go on to develop an interest in pre-64 Winchesters remains to be seen, but it just might happen if they hang around here enough.  Welcoming these folks, rather than dismissing them as misguided morons, seems like a good idea to me… 

Just my take…

For Clarence… 

According to Rule’s figures… There were 581,471 pre-64 Model 70 receivers made (1936-1963).  From 1964-1967 there were 173,695 Model 70s made (average of 43,000 per year), while from 1968-1981 651,629 more were produced (average 46,000 per year).  So a total of 825,324 Model 70 were made in the (18) years of post-63 Olin production, compared to 581,471 made in the (28) years of pre-64 production.  Somebody bought all those post-63 guns…

Cheers,

Lou

clarence said

Louis Luttrell said

While I only collect pre-64 Winchesters (Model 70s) and don’t own a single post-63 Winchester…

Ben’s Ted Williams Special is the gun to correct this lacuna.  Who doesn’t like the Splendid Splinter?  (Except Yankees’ fanatics.)

  

As Lou undoubtedly knows from his endless years of training and professing, there are some things not even a lab rat will do; in the case of the Sears 52,  I can attest not even a trial lawyer would go that low.  NB the majority of Olin’s post 63 production  occurred post 67, when sanity returned to the commercial gun department. 64-67 was the teachable moment. 

Hi 450 Fuller-

I think we’re largely on the same page about pre-64 versus post-63 Model 70s and later copies that incorporated pointless “safety features”…  But I think that potential collectors (that often “inherited” disease) begins with an interest in something with which you’ve got some familiarity/exposure.  I don’t want to discourage the younger hunters/collectors (whose only tangible exposure is to post-63 “Winchesters”) from embracing the hobby, before they have the chance to “see the light”…

Interesting that you mention Petersen’s “The Complete Book of Winchester’s Model 70”.  Turn to page 80, the article on “Dr. Smith’s Model 70s” by Wayne Van Zwoll.  I’m currently looking after the four rifles pictured on that page (from when they were in Lou Leonard’s collection)…  I don’t own them, of course, they belong to another WACA member.  I haven’t the kind of resources needed to collect such things… But boy they are NICE… Pic below was taken in the owners gun room (not mine) but it’s sort’a like the one on page 80…

In bolt action sporting rifles you can’t beat a pre-64 Model 70 IMHO!!!

Lou