OMG!!! Questionable Pre-64 M70 Carbine SOLD!!!|Page 3|Winchester Rifles|Forum|Winchester Collector

Gary S, Very nicely done.

What Gary has done is most commendable!

But, what happens someday when someone years down the road purchases this thinking it has an original .30-06 barrel.  Or does that not matter?

The cheapest and easiest thing to have done would be to part out this rifle.  But, at the end of the day, you have a receiver with this serial number which could be used to create another .30-06 rifle that is a parts gun save for the receiver and bolt, which are the only numbered parts (IIRC).  The barrel contains the last two digits of the year of manufacture.

Lou – 

I enjoyed reading your take – I think it was right on.

I’ve been following this topic but hadn’t commented – maybe because I’m not a M70 guy – but I do like to learn.

I was musing of the potential future of this rifle.  Maybe a future buyer will do an internet serial number search and obtain a portion of the history.  That is, that it previously had been a 9×57 carbine.  How often does a switch go in that direction – from super rare to common?

Louis Luttrell said
Hi Ian-
There’s no advantage to “parting out” what’s left of a rifle like this IMHO…  The number of people who buy up M70 actions and/or intact but used standard rifles to convert them into “super rare special order caliber” fakes is substantial.  The only way to prevent M70 fakery in the future would be to destroy all pre-64 receivers…  I’m sure you could find some folks in Congress who’d endorse that plan, but not for the same reason… 
As far as the “ethics” of changing it back…  The best we (I) know, the gun was originally a 30 GOV’T’06 standard rifle.  That’s what it was when I saw in at RIA and usually people don’t fake 30-06 Standard rifles…  Courtesy of pre64win.com we have a very respectable ’38 date “1906” barrel that would match the early ’39 receiver. 
I think the “philosophical” question is an interesting one…  It’s doubtful (in my mind) that anyone could tell the barrel is a replacement (unless the proofs aren’t close).  So even if Gary sells the gun down the road with full disclosure (which he probably will), and the next guy (or the guy after that) doesn’t mention the swap, it’s still a gun that cannot be “debunked”…
So does it matter at the end of the day???  I KNOW that the “purist” wants everything in their collection to be “factory original”…  But how do they know what’s “100% original” (unless they only buy guns from the original owner’s family)???  Some people will stand firm that THEIR guns are 100% original while questioning anything else…  On what basis other than ego???
How much, if any, part changing it acceptable?  How much can be “proven”???  How about replacing a bent front sight on a 375 H&H MAGNUM Standard rifle?  Does that demand “disclosure”???  Is a barrel “different” if it’s the same chambering and nobody can tell??? 
I don’t know… I can tell you that when it comes to “fungible” guns like M70s, my “red line” is drawn at changing the Catalog Symbol of the gun.  In other words, replacing missing/changed sights, even on rare occasions stocks (if the gun is worth it), doesn’t bother me.  If I can’t tell the change has been made, there are only a few people who could… So I don’t/wouldn’t care…  Apart from flat out fakes, in the M70 world one big issue is “upgrading” Standard Grade rifles in uncommon chamberings to Super Grade (at the expense of a “donor” 30-06 or 270 WCF).  On guns made before 1955, if the parts are period correct and carefully put together, most people (including me) cannot tell…  
Just my take… 
Lou
  

Excellent commentary, Lou!

And I did just that, replaced a sight on a Model 70 in .375 Holland & Holland Magnum, and don’t you think it doesn’t bother me that I did have to replace it, in fact when I hold it just right I can see ever so slightly a bit of light.

But, the odd thing is if I hadn’t done this, would I have ever known nor looked for or noticed the bit of light?  No.

Does it make it any less valuable or require disclosure at the time of sale?  No.  It bothers me I had to replace it with an identical sight, but had someone else done it prior to my purchase—and how do I know they didn’t?—it wouldn’t even be something that I would know, identify, or be troubled with.  If I get the sight hood I need, and should have had on the rifle before it fell and bent the original sight, it will be impossible to tell it ever was replaced if the fact that seeing a smidgen of light identifies the sight as being non original to this  rifle—or does it?

The only permanent solution is to destroy the receiver or, at least obliterate serial numbers on it, but I don’t advocate the former and the latter is illegal.

Witjout factory records, anything is possible with only previous observations of said rifle proving subsequent changes—or not.

 Louis, Thank you for the above posts.  I would think that most would agree with what you stated. There is a silver lining in the fakers cloud.  It is one of the smaller reasons why the advanced  Model 70 collector seeks knowledge.  The main reason is that we want to know all we can about these fine rifles.  A never ending quest.