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November 7, 2015
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In my opinion the seller may not know if the item is original and the only honest answer is “I don’t know”. If he won’t allow a reasonable inspection period and/or additional pics it may be advisable to look elsewhere. There are apparently plenty of buyers who aren’t so discriminating. One thing to understand is that it costs a minimum of several thousand dollars to have your day in court. Winning isn’t everything, it’s expensive and stressful for the principals.
Mike
January 20, 2023
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An old Arab curse: “May you have a lawsuit and be in the right.”
- Bill
WACA # 65205; life member, NRA; member, TGCA; member, TSRA; amateur preservationist
"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.
November 19, 2006
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Zebulon said
An old Arab curse: “May you have a lawsuit and be in the right.”
Hadn’t heard that one before.
November 7, 2015
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Zebulon said
An old Arab curse: “May you have a lawsuit and be in the right.”
I was sued by a con artist. My attorney was afraid of plaintiff’s attorney. My attorney got paid even though he lied to me. Plaintiff’s attorney never got paid, eventually figured out she was being lied to. Case went away. Hard to call that a win.
Mike
November 19, 2006
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TXGunNut said
Zebulon said
An old Arab curse: “May you have a lawsuit and be in the right.”
I was sued by a con artist. My attorney was afraid of plaintiff’s attorney. My attorney got paid even though he lied to me. Plaintiff’s attorney never got paid, eventually figured out she was being lied to. Case went away. Hard to call that a win.
Mike
Mike –
Your post prompted me to reflect that in life, when confronted with certain problems, a person often receives advice from others. Such as, “you should see an attorney” or, “you should see a doctor,” or, “you should call a repairman.” This advice is usually appropriate. The problem, is the results can vary. Considerably.
January 20, 2023
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steve004 said
TXGunNut said
Zebulon said
An old Arab curse: “May you have a lawsuit and be in the right.”
I was sued by a con artist. My attorney was afraid of plaintiff’s attorney. My attorney got paid even though he lied to me. Plaintiff’s attorney never got paid, eventually figured out she was being lied to. Case went away. Hard to call that a win.
Mike
Mike –
Your post prompted me to reflect that in life, when confronted with certain problems, a person often receives advice from others. Such as, “you should see an attorney” or, “you should see a doctor,” or, “you should call a repairman.” This advice is usually appropriate. The problem, is the results can vary. Considerably.
Professional services are not fungible. Not all gunsmiths (or surgeons or attorneys or clergymen, et al.) are equally skilled or experienced. Sometimes they are very good at one thing and not at another. Some are lazy or careless or unscrupulous and need not to be in their profession.
That is equally true of the skilled trades.
The only way I know to find a good and suitable attorney is by asking a lot of people whose intelligence and judgement you trust to name a lawyer they have used for the same category of service you need.
In Texas, the Bar offers specialty certifications that are useful, although there are attorneys known to be excellent in a field who don’t bother pursuing certification. However, certified specialization does offer the assurance of considerable knowledge and some experience in a particular area of the law.
Although proof of knowledge and experience does not perfectly measure the peculiar sets of skills of trial or appellate litigators.
Another indication to consider is whether an attorney has been rated by Martindale Hubbell, publisher of a comprehensive legal directory that issues ratings based on peer reviews (other lawyers and judges who have had experience with the attorney under consideration) it undertakes. The ratings are CV, BV, and AV. At one time only about 25% of the bar was MH-rated. I don’t know what it is now. The “V” meant “very high ethics” — won’t lie,cheat or steal. Without the V, the other rating — competence – wasn’t available.
To sum up, you need to listen to the street people. Just as in the illicit market for cocaine and heroin, when buying legal services you need to “Know Your Dealer.”
- Bill
WACA # 65205; life member, NRA; member, TGCA; member, TSRA; amateur preservationist
"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.
November 7, 2015
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Agreed, Bill. You know more of this story than I’ll post here. My point is that we should not rely on attorneys or the courts to sort out our missteps in the gun collecting world. Do your homework, know what to look for and know what you’re looking at. If you’re looking for legal remedies you’ve already made a costly mistake.
Mike
January 20, 2023
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My man, you have spoke the truth. “Going to the law” is something you shouldn’t do unless your back is truly to the wall.
Although ours is a Winchester site, I have yet to meet a Member who doesn’t relish a fine Savage Model 1899. A rare one is the little 99-T. I bought one online represented as being in original condition and it was anything but. I swallowed my anger, posted an “F” and went on. It would have been to sue the wind.
Proposing to throw good money after bad, I had it disassembled and some of the parts polished to prepare them for case hardening. A fellow who was going to recut the faded stamps and marks for me never could get the barrel off.
I had the stock and bag of parts in a gun case outside the safe, for some reason. When we were having a lot of work done on the house years ago, it disappeared.
All I have left is the bare receiver and still-attached barrel, a separate bare polished lever and buttplate. The stock and all the lockwork is gone. I only wish I could have seen the thief’s expression when he unzipped the case.
- Bill
WACA # 65205; life member, NRA; member, TGCA; member, TSRA; amateur preservationist
"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.
November 19, 2006
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Zebulon said
My man, you have spoke the truth. “Going to the law” is something you shouldn’t do unless your back is truly to the wall.
Although ours is a Winchester site, I have yet to meet a Member who doesn’t relish a fine Savage Model 1899. A rare one is the little 99-T. I bought one online represented as being in original condition and it was anything but. I swallowed my anger, posted an “F” and went on. It would have been to sue the wind.
Proposing to throw good money after bad, I had it disassembled and some of the parts polished to prepare them for case hardening. A fellow who was going to recut the faded stamps and marks for me never could get the barrel off.
I had the stock and bag of parts in a gun case outside the safe, for some reason. When we were having a lot of work done on the house years ago, it disappeared.
All I have left is the bare receiver and still-attached barrel, a separate bare polished lever and buttplate. The stock and all the lockwork is gone. I only wish I could have seen the thief’s expression when he unzipped the case.
Bill –
Personally, I surely would not debate this statement:
I have yet to meet a Member who doesn’t relish a fine Savage Model 1899.
Collecting is generally fun and enjoyable. But when experiences like this come along, it leaves quite the sour taste. In my experience, that taste lingers for a very long time.
I do wonder what the thief did with his stolen prize
January 20, 2023
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Good morning, Steve. Mr. sticky-fingers undoubtedly put them in the landfill.
I like to think of him as the gone-bad cousin of Inspector Clouseau.
- Bill
WACA # 65205; life member, NRA; member, TGCA; member, TSRA; amateur preservationist
"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.
September 22, 2011
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steve004 said
Zebulon said
My man, you have spoke the truth. “Going to the law” is something you shouldn’t do unless your back is truly to the wall.
Although ours is a Winchester site, I have yet to meet a Member who doesn’t relish a fine Savage Model 1899. A rare one is the little 99-T. I bought one online represented as being in original condition and it was anything but. I swallowed my anger, posted an “F” and went on. It would have been to sue the wind.
Proposing to throw good money after bad, I had it disassembled and some of the parts polished to prepare them for case hardening. A fellow who was going to recut the faded stamps and marks for me never could get the barrel off.
I had the stock and bag of parts in a gun case outside the safe, for some reason. When we were having a lot of work done on the house years ago, it disappeared.
All I have left is the bare receiver and still-attached barrel, a separate bare polished lever and buttplate. The stock and all the lockwork is gone. I only wish I could have seen the thief’s expression when he unzipped the case.
Bill –
Personally, I surely would not debate this statement:
I have yet to meet a Member who doesn’t relish a fine Savage Model 1899.
Collecting is generally fun and enjoyable. But when experiences like this come along, it leaves quite the sour taste. In my experience, that taste lingers for a very long time.
I do wonder what the thief did with his stolen prize
In fact, I wish there was a subsection of this forum devoted to the Savage 1899 since there is no longer a forum devoted to the Savage 1899 as the savageshootersforum is now defunct.
August 27, 2014
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Try the Savage Collectors Forum on the 24 HourCampfire Site. Very knowledgeable members there
“If you can’t convince them, confuse them”
President Harry S. Truman
August 4, 2023
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I like reading threads like this, it’s interesting, and I always learn something. I can’t add anything about Winchester Model 70’s since my knowledge base is very limited, so most of my posts are questions. It can be said that I know just enough to get myself in trouble. That said, I do know enough not to buy something rare, often faked, and very expensive without an experts opinion. If the seller isn’t accommodating that is a huge red flag in itself. Any collecting I do is not advanced. I stay away from everything I feel has a chance of being faked. A nice example of an standard rifle in the caliber I want, at a good price is a safe bet. Often these type of sales where the price is good a decision needs to be made sooner rather than later, or you could miss out. That is where some general knowledge is important. I despise the cheat, but I have little sympathy for the guy that has so much money that he’s not careful what he’s buying. I know I’ve made a few small mistakes here and there, and maybe overpaid a little sometimes, but I bought what I did because I liked it, and wanted it, and in the end I’m happy.
December 9, 2002
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mrcvs said,
In fact, I wish there was a subsection of this forum devoted to the Savage 1899 since there is no longer a forum devoted to the Savage 1899 as the savageshootersforum is now defunct.
Tedk said
Try the Savage Collectors Forum on the 24 HourCampfire Site. Very knowledgeable members there
I’m in agreement with TedK, on this as the Savage Rifles section on the 24 hour campfire, is where the very well known and knowledgeable Savage Collectors hang out. They gather once a year at an annual, “Savage Fest”, get together and swap and sell, and do a show and tell display of all things Savage.
Most are well known in the Collector World.
Anthony
March 6, 2026
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History, Summary and future of the Winchester model 70 9mm Carbine, Serial Number 21088 as discussed in this forum on November 6, 2025.
First off… I am the guy who sold the rifle under discussion.
Having said that, I thought it might be interesting, and perhaps helpful, to the members of the forum to know what happened before and since that discussion.
I saw 21088 listed in an auction in March of 2020. I am not an avid Model 70 collector but have been aware that the landscape in collecting them can be rather treacherous, so I did what I believed to be adequate due diligence and acquired the rifle. It sat in my rack until sometime in 2025, when I decided to add it to my listings on GunsInternational. Although I thought I knew about what it should be worth, I decided to get an appraisal, both to reassure myself about the value, but also, to confirm the authenticity, given the nature of the Model 70 collecting arena. Although a formal appraisal was not issued due to the destruction of Winchester’s records, all indications from the appraiser were that 21088 was authentic. Not getting the appraisal may have been a red flag for someone more knowledgeable, but at the time it sounded reasonable to me. I placed the listing and 21088 was sold in November of 2025.
In February of 2026, I got a call from the buyer, who was friendly and very polite as he had been during the purchase transaction. He told me he had consulted a firm with known expertise concerning collectable Model 70’s, and they told him the gun was not authentic. They had done a serial number search (something that never occurred to me) and turned up the Rock Island sale in February of 2019 wherein the rifle had a 24” .30-06 barrel. I told the buyer I would like a couple of days to research and wrap my head around this unexpected situation and get back to him, and he agreed.
One of the first things I did was to run my own serial number search, which brought up the Rock Island listing along with my GI listing, but also brought up this November 6 discussion. “Surprised” probably doesn’t convey my feelings as I realized this whole conversation was about one of my transactions!
In these days of AI, I wanted to confirm that the Rock Island listing was legitimate, so I called them. As I really already knew, because I had compared grain in the stock, as some of you did, they confirmed the listing. My early thoughts were of finding the perpetrator, but I soon realized that, even if you could identify them, the reality of getting any satisfaction is extremely remote for a myriad of reasons, some of which have been mentioned in this post.
As for my purchase, I’ve been doing business with that auction house for over 10 years and consider them not only to be good friends, but absolutely trustworthy. It is in no way reasonable to expect the auction company to authenticate every gun.
My next call was to the Winchester Arms Collectors Association, where I asked the nice lady that answered the phone if I could talk to the Winchester Model 70 expert. She said he wasn’t there, but if I gave her my number, she would have him call. A little while later, I got a call from Lou Luttrell. For the next hour and a half we had a very interesting conversation, and my education was significantly enhanced. Among other things I learned that the subtleties and nuances of determining the authenticity of Model 70’s is way beyond what I had ever envisioned. More importantly, we explored options for 21088 going forward. I was pleasantly surprised that I was able to easily access a phone number for the association, that a guy I had never met called me back in short order, and that that guy was so willing to share his time and expertise to help me solve a significant problem. Thanks, Lou!
As for options going forward…
Early on, I thought perhaps I could just mark the barrel in some way resell 21088 at a reduced price with full disclosure. Unfortunately, that does not guarantee that a future owner doesn’t sell it, omitting the full disclosure. To quote my dad… ”Even fleas have smaller fleas upon their backs to bite them, and smaller fleas have smaller fleas, and so ad infinitum.” Sooner or later, some generation of buyers and sellers will resurrect the fraud.
Another option would be to remove the 9MM Carbine barrel and return 21088 to its original configuration as a .30-06 rifle. This seemed to me to be by far the most reasonable approach.
Later in the afternoon after I had talked to Lou, I got another call from him. He had emailed Justin Hale at pre64win about our conversation. Justin volunteered that he had a 1938 .30-06 barrel that he would contribute, along with the installation, to bring 21088 back to its original configuration, and in the process take the 9MM fraud barrel out of circulation. The rifle has been delivered to pre64win. The indelibly marked barrel will be returned to me where it will hang in a conspicuous location in my shop with a tag that says, “Hey Gary, don’t be stupid!”
The end result of all this is that three things needed to happen…
The buyer needed to get his money back, which has been done.
The fraud rifle needed to be permanently taken out of circulation, which is happening now.
And several people need to be thanked…I want to extend a sincere “Thank You!” to Lou Luttrell for sharing his time and knowledge, Justin Hale, of pre64win, for his unsolicited and very much appreciated contribution toward getting a fraudulent Model 70 out of circulation and my buyer for his understanding and cooperation throughout this transaction.
There’s obviously been some cost to this, but it has been significantly offset by some new acquaintances and the confirmation that there are some pretty good people out there.
GaryS
January 20, 2023
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Welcome, Gary. It sounds as if you behaved in an honorable fashion and did the right thing, at not insignificant cost to yourself. It was a sharp lesson, I’m sure.
If there is any place to innoculate yourself against fraudulent Winchesters, this is it.
- Bill
WACA # 65205; life member, NRA; member, TGCA; member, TSRA; amateur preservationist
"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.
April 15, 2005
Online
Hello Gary,
I would like to extend my great appreciation and sincere Thank You! for your posted message and clarification as to the events surrounding Model 70 s/n 21088. While it was undoubtedly a stressful situation for you to endure, you showed your true color so-to-speak by stepping up the plate and setting things right … again, THANK YOU for doing so!! 
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
May 14, 2025
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Hi Gary, we certainly appreciate the reply and update and kudos on coming on here and owning it all. However, I’m left wondering what auction did you buy it from and why aren’t you outing the person who sold it to you? It appears RIA sold a legitimate rifle and a short time later you are saying it was flipped in another unnamed auction by an unnamed person? While I agree it is tough for any auction house to verify everything they sell, they still need to know they sold a fake and most importantly help identify the person who sold it. Just my thoughts but kudos again to you for owning this and making the 2nd buyer whole!
November 5, 2014
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Hi Gary-
THANK YOU for posting this update… I’m happy you set things right and sorry that you are the one eating the loss… I like your idea of putting the barrel in a glass case in your shop!!! I have a couple examples myself (that will NEVER see the light of day) that serve me as reminders…
If you have any questions going forward about “collectable” Winchesters, PLEASE feel free to reach out to the WACA “historians”. That’s the motley crew Bert has put together and they can cover pretty much any Pre-64 Model. You don’t need to bring it to the Forum (not that that’s a bad thing), you can use the “Contact Us” portal and it will get to the right person…
I also want to thank Justin (pre64win.com) for contributing resources to get the gun back to what it was… When I updated him on the situation (we had previously discussed the matter) I had no idea he would have a correct barrel AND volunteer to do the work gratis…
Best,
Lou
WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters
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