I went back into Ray’s book.  On page 8, 2nd paragraph, he explains that he does not go into great detail on each cartridge due to redundancy.  So he states to look at the 30 WCF or the 44 WCF for much more detail when dating a box.  The 30 WCF section shows the first round box , Type 1A, Transitional (Ca. 1902).   I know that not all examples are shown in his book but this is the first round cornered 20 round box that he shows.  I then went and looked in the 1876 section for earlier examples of the 20 round box.  On the bottom of page 86 he comments that “Neither of these round cornered boxes of the early 1900’s …..”    He comment that the Lack of the Trademark line on the top box dates it to 1900-1903. Again we don’t know if earlier examples existed and he just didn’t have one to put in the book.  I’m still leaning toward a “transitional” period around 1900.  It is possible that it could be a littler earlier.

Maverick said
Chuck,

I’m assuming your referring to 45-90 box of the 1st first post by Old Guns, and not Bert’s boxes.

I’m sticking with my opinion of 1903-1905, it could have also been in 1902, but I don’t believe it would be before 1900. But to be honest I’ve never paid much attention to the rounded versus flat cornered boxes. That is something I’d have to research more of. I’ve always been more concerned with what the Labels and the actual cartridges in the box can tell you.

I would consider 1903-1905 as the “early 1900’s” as it is before 1910. Based on other Winchester product labels of the period I wouldn’t consider this to be a transitional piece. Rather just the next phase in Winchester’s use of different nomenclature. I believe Winchester was constantly changing and working on their marketing to the world. 

The use of the term “Trade Mark” by Winchester as far as I’m aware came into use in very late 1901 / early 1902 time frame. With a lot of the model firearms not using the term Trade Mark on them until 1903-1904. The 45-90 box is marked Trade Mark on the top and side label of the box.

Sincerely,

Maverick

P.S. I don’t know if that helps clarify anything, but these are just my humble opinions.  

I was referring to Bert’s boxes with the older Central Fire top label that are on the later round cornered boxes.  We both agree on the 45-90 box.  I’m not disagreeing with you on these it just bugs me that I can’t find when the round cornered boxes first came out.

Edit.   Here is a response I just received from Ray. 

“Chuck, what box or labeling are you specifically referring to? Center Fire began in 20rd bxs ca 1898. Round corner 20 rd 2-pc boxes came in ca 1900. 

Ray”.      I sent him one of Bert’s pictures.  I’m waiting to see what he has to say.

Read my last post.  I had to edit it possibly after you read it.

I dug out a couple of boxes.  First there is Bert’s box. Then a round top box, followed by a square top, followed by the round and square next to each other.

Maverick said

Chuck,

I would agree with Ray that Bert’s boxes are not the “Rounded Boxes” and are Pre-1898. His looked slightly rounded on some of the corners, but that maybe just from use / wear / handling, I suppose.

Sincerely,

Maverick  

I agree too.  They sure looked round but when I actually pulled out a round box it answered all my questions. 

Is there a reference somewhere that shows the different primer labels? I have a couple of boxes that have labels that don’t appear in Ray’s book.

I’d buy that book..