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I picked up this old box of 45-90 a few months ago. Any idea how old it may be? Not the best of condition but still there for the most part and 8 loaded rounds. No mention of black powder so I am thinking it predates smokeless powder.
THIS ALL STARTED WITH JUST ONE GUN!
This is loaded with black powder. Believe me you can not load 90 grains of smokeless in this cartridge and not expect an explosion. During this period any ammo loaded with smokeless will say so.
I was trying to say I think the box was in use before smokeless powder came on the scene. Weren’t most boxes marked “Black Powder” after smokeless appeared?
THIS ALL STARTED WITH JUST ONE GUN!
I have the same box of 38-56 and where yours say 90 grs. black mine says smokeless
Old Guns said
I was trying to say I think the box was in use before smokeless powder came on the scene. Weren’t most boxes marked “Black Powder” after smokeless appeared?
No. During this period any ammo loaded with smokeless will say so. Black powder boxes never said black powder during this time frame. Your box is not a real early black powder box. Early boxes say Central fire not Center fire. Earlier boxes have square corners on the lid. Your box has rounded corners on the top of the lid. There are more but these are the easiest to see right off. Smokeless loads for this caliber came out in 1895/96. Your box is no earlier than 1904.
Chuck is correct. This is the black powder round corner box which the Giles & Shuey book indicates was made between 1904 and 1914 – the exact box is shown on page 154 of their book. Attached is a box of the earlier ammo with the square top box and a photo of an old 86 made to shoot the stuff. I hope everyone is holding up well during this time of social distancing.
OK, this topic has peaked my interest just a bit. For you fellows that have knowledge of this topic, please take a look at the attached pictures and enlighten me as to when the box was produced.
Thanks in advance,
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Here is another box & shells… I purchased both boxes to display with my 50-95 WCF high-wall (top rifle in my signature picture).
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Chuck said
Black powder boxes never said black powder during this time frame.
Any idea when the term “black” powder came into use? Originally, it was merely called “gunpowder.” At some point, a less-explosive mixture called “brown” powder came into use for mining & other industrial uses; maybe that has something to do with calling it BP.
I have a 45-90 box that’s similar to OPs however earlier (1890s) and has the Red “Metal Patch” label.
Winchester Model 1873 44-40 circa 1886
Kevin Jones said
I have a 45-90 box that’s similar to OPs however earlier (1890s) and has the Red “Metal Patch” label.
This is the first 45-90 box for the 1886. Not sure when it actually came out but it was listed in the Catalogs in 1886.
Bert H. said
OK, this topic has peaked my interest just a bit. For you fellows that have knowledge of this topic, please take a look at the attached pictures and enlighten me as to when the box was produced.Thanks in advance,
Bert
Bert I don’t know about this one. It says Central Fire but has round corners. It has the mills Primer Call out label. It is not shown in Ray’s book. I have one similar but mine has the square corners and the Primer Call Out does not say Mills and is not shown in the book either. Because of the round corners and Central Fire I would say 1900/1904.
Bert H. said
Here is another box & shells… I purchased both boxes to display with my 50-95 WCF high-wall (top rifle in my signature picture).
Bert this one is a hard one too. My best guess is 1900/1904 because of the round corners and the earlier Central Fire top label. There isn’t a picture of this in Ray’s book. He does talk about 2 different shot cartridges and this one is the less rare of the two. But is rarer that a normal box of the same vintage.
Chuck,
I bought both boxes from Walt at the Cody show back in 2006. I later spoke to Ray Giles about the Shot cartridge box, and he mentioned that he had only seen two of them… mine, and the one he owns. The other 50-95 Shot cartridge was designed for the Model 1876, and it too is a rare.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Kevin Jones said
I have a 45-90 box that’s similar to OPs however earlier (1890s) and has the Red “Metal Patch” label.
This box is available if anyone is interested, PM me.
Winchester Model 1873 44-40 circa 1886
Bert H. said
Chuck,
I bought both boxes from Walt at the Cody show back in 2006. I later spoke to Ray Giles about the Shot cartridge box, and he mentioned that he had only seen two of them… mine, and the one he owns. The other 50-95 Shot cartridge was designed for the Model 1876, and it too is a rare.
Bert
Ray is the guy. You can call or email him for the correct info. As you know I am just a collector but Walt taught me quite a bit. Ray doesn’t have every example of every cartridge box in his book. Especially if it so rare that he has never seen more than 2 of them. The shot cartridges vary according to the neck or lack of one I think?
As rarity goes the 30 WCF is not shown as being that rare. Just try finding an antique box. I’ve only seen a couple. I bought one and I told Ray about the other and he bought it.
For those that don’t know Ray he now only goes to the Denver show.
This thread, and others like it, are truly FASCINATING! I think, to encourage it, we need a separate section entitled “Antique Ammunition pertaining to Winchesters”.
Old Guns said
I picked up this old box of 45-90 a few months ago. Any idea how old it may be? Not the best of condition but still there for the most part and 8 loaded rounds. No mention of black powder so I am thinking it predates smokeless powder.
In my opinion the box was made between the years 1903-1905. After 1898 Winchester no longer used the term “Central Fire” and switched to “Center Fire” on labels. Sometime after 1902 Winchester started using the term “Trade Mark” on labels. In early 1906 labels have Winchester in quotes, “Winchester” and later in June 1906 they introduced the Trade Mark ‘W’ and started using the File Code and Date Codes on labels, i.e. (2346) (7-6).
So in my opinion, that makes the boxes having been made after 1902 due to use of the Trade Mark terms, and pre-1906 as it doesn’t have “Winchester” or a File Code and Date Code on the label.
Now as far as the actual shells goes, I’m not sure when they would have been made. I would assume there original to the box, but they very well could be replaced cartridges or even possibly reloads, but I’m doubtful of that.
Sincerely,
Maverick
WACA #8783 - Checkout my Reloading Tool Survey!
https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-research-surveys/winchester-reloading-tool-survey/
Bert H. said
OK, this topic has peaked my interest just a bit. For you fellows that have knowledge of this topic, please take a look at the attached pictures and enlighten me as to when the box was produced.Thanks in advance,
Bert
Pre-1898 as it uses the term CentralFire. It has a Post 1882, or later powder recommendation on side of box. The Pre-1882 label has 6 different powder recommendations. I believe the powder label is the early No. 2 1/2 label that came into use post 1886. Post Head stamp use, so post-1885. Also the image of the head stamp used on the box label is 50-95 W.C.F., which first appeared in the 1886 catalog. Per Shuey’s head stamp book has the Type A head stamp. The Type B head stamp has an additional period before the 50. I don’t know if that means that Type A came before Type B, other than that there are different types of head stamps. The primers are lacking the W primer, so I believe they’re pre W primer use. I currently don’t recall when the W primer started to be in use, but I believe it was much later.
So my best guess is right now is 1886-1898 time frame for this box. More research wouldn’t hurt either.
Bert H. said
Here is another box & shells… I purchased both boxes to display with my 50-95 WCF high-wall (top rifle in my signature picture).
For this box my initial reaction would be the same time frame, as the box has similar features as the above. But I don’t know what the powder recommendation label looks like, I’m assuming the same as the one before. The only other feature that appears to further narrow down a time frame is the call out for shot cartridges. Shuey states the first catalog of 1893 has Black Powder Shot Cartridges. So I guess the time frame is 1893-1898.
Sincerely,
Maverick
WACA #8783 - Checkout my Reloading Tool Survey!
https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-research-surveys/winchester-reloading-tool-survey/
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