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Ian and Zeb; I don’t know , or care who was bidding against Me, I placed My maximum bid about 2-3 weeks ago , only placed one bid, and didn’t look again until the auction was over. I won 4 items out of the 6 items I bid on. Did the auction house run them up?, I don’t know and again don’t really care, What I do know is , I got 4 nice 1890’s , that I wanted , at a price I can live with. They were a fraction of the price that R.I.A. ‘s guns sold for a week ago. I didn’t bid on any of the ’66’s or ’73’s as I’ve currently got more of them than I want. The only other items I bid on was a Winchester clothes iron, I didn’t get it either, and I stillI don’t have one, and a1894. I have done the same for 5 pieces in the Morphy’s auction coming up
W.A.C.A. life member, Marlin Collectors Assn. charter and life member, C,S.S.A. member and general gun nut.
Henry, that is definitely the professional way to bid. It eliminates the “I’m not lettin’ that #$$^^& get away with it!” factor from the bidding process. For lack of that kind of self-discipline I’ve bought several dead mules for the price of live Arabians.
- Bill
WACA # 65205; life member, NRA; member, TGCA; member, TSRA; amateur preservationist
"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.
November 7, 2015
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Tedk said
TXGunNut said
Tedk said
So let me get this straight…..
It’s OK for a knowledgeable collector to take advantage of an uninformed widow or heir, but it’s not appropriate for an uninformed widow or heir to contract with an auction house to avoid being taken advantage of?
Jan Grove is not an uninformed widow, she has spent years behind tables at gun shows. She may not be up to speed on the latest auction strategies but it’s often a crapshoot and I wish her the best. Don had some good stuff and many pieces should bring a premium.
I’ve made some fortuitous purchases at the Orphanage and I have no knowledgeable heirs. What goes around, comes around. If you want a chance at some pretty decent Winchesters all you have to do is outlive me! If you’re a reloader be sure to make an offer on that pile of reloading equipment and supplies.
Mike
You twisted my comment, that was a general statement and not referring to this specific situation
I am concerned with this specific situation and if you feel I twisted your comment I can assure you that was not my intent. I was addressing the Grove estate situation and if you were not you did not make yourself clear. I did a little business with Don, he was an honorable man. He was a man of his word and I respected that. He bought a rifle from me at the opening of a past Cody show and apologized for writing me a check as he had not sold anything yet. I knew him well enough to tell him his word or his check were as good as cash. I don’t know Jan but I’ll give her the same respect I gave Don. She’s nobody’s fool and I hope she is treated with the respect I feel she deserves. If my stepping up for the widow of a good man hurts your feelings, Tedk, so be it.
Mike
November 5, 2014
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mrcvs said. Nothing p*ss*s me off more than a greedy heir holding out for top dollar, this often being unrealistic. To level the playing field here, I try and educate myself about firearms, and were an uneducated heir want to sell me a firearm at well under actual value, I would strike while the iron is hot. I have no qualms about this, but this is increasingly uncommon. As some of these estates with valuable firearms have increased in value to extraordinary numbers, heirs have become increasingly greedy, or so it seems.
Tedk said. So let me get this straight…..It’s OK for a knowledgeable collector to take advantage of an uninformed widow or heir, but it’s not appropriate for an uninformed widow or heir to contract with an auction house to avoid being taken advantage of?
Hi Mike-
The way I interpreted Ted’s comment (to which you object) is that it was a general response to the general comment Ian made and that I quoted above (my underline). If anyone were to get tweaked about it, it would be Ian, who seemed (to me) to be saying that he would seize the opportunity (“strike while the iron is hot”) to purchase a firearm at well under what he knew to be it’s true value, and would have “no qualms about this”.
Since the overall gist of Ian’s post was that “greedy heirs” sometimes (often) do not realize the best return on their inheritance because of bad decisions regarding reserves (that might have been formulated in consultation with the auction house), the quoted comment seemed ironic, i.e. an “uneducated heir” selling at bargain prices to an “educated” buyer was OK, but seeking to maximize return by using an auction house was somehow inappropriate.
IMHO, you and Ted were BOTH sticking up for Jan’s right to sell off the remaining Grove Collection (and any other “heir” – informed or not) using whatever strategy that she/they think is best…
Just my take…
Lou
WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters
Louis Luttrell said
mrcvs said. Nothing p*ss*s me off more than a greedy heir holding out for top dollar, this often being unrealistic. To level the playing field here, I try and educate myself about firearms, and were an uneducated heir want to sell me a firearm at well under actual value, I would strike while the iron is hot. I have no qualms about this, but this is increasingly uncommon. As some of these estates with valuable firearms have increased in value to extraordinary numbers, heirs have become increasingly greedy, or so it seems.
Tedk said. So let me get this straight…..It’s OK for a knowledgeable collector to take advantage of an uninformed widow or heir, but it’s not appropriate for an uninformed widow or heir to contract with an auction house to avoid being taken advantage of?
Hi Mike-
The way I interpreted Ted’s comment (to which you object) is that it was a general response to the general comment Ian made and that I quoted above (my underline). If anyone were to get tweaked about it, it would be Ian, who seemed (to me) to be saying that he would seize the opportunity (“strike while the iron is hot”) to purchase a firearm at well under what he knew to be it’s true value, and would have “no qualms about this”.
Since the overall gist of Ian’s post was that “greedy heirs” sometimes (often) do not realize the best return on their inheritance because of bad decisions regarding reserves (that might have been formulated in consultation with the auction house), the quoted comment seemed ironic, i.e. an “uneducated heir” selling at bargain prices to an “educated” buyer was OK, but seeking to maximize return by using an auction house was somehow inappropriate.
IMHO, you and Ted were BOTH sticking up for Jan’s right to sell off the remaining Grove Collection (and any other “heir” – informed or not) using whatever strategy that she/they think is best…
Just my take…
Lou
IDK. Perhaps I am wrong here, but there are so many opportunities to overpay and get taken out there, and there are few bargains out there, is it wrong to get a bargain every now and again? Sort of level the playing field? When I started out, i certainly overpaid for stuff. I think we all did. As I have become more educated, I’ve tried not to do that. Thus, my education has some value.
So, what would you do if a widow or heir presented you with a pre war Model 70 in .375 H & H with condition and no after market modifications, and you are told that it was bought for $1000 back in 1985, “and I’d sure like to get that for it”. Do you still dicker? I’m sure some folks might say, well, it’s a used gun, probably not worth more than $800. Do you give the heir $1000? Both parties are satisfied. Do you give $1500? Makes the heir feel a bit better. But that can backfire. If offered $1500, that’s odd, maybe it’s worth far more. I’ll go elsewhere and get more…like RIA.
This topic came up over on the Colt forum on a thread I created recently. A lot of uneducated folks/heirs have been coming out of the woodwork lately, wanting to know what a Colt is worth. Do we tell them what it is, and do a disservice to our fellow collectors, pricing it out of reach of any of us, only for the benefit of RIAs coffers? Or, do we try and make it accessible to ourselves, fellow collectors, who appreciate the historical value of these firearms and not the investment value?
Many of these firearms come from some impressive estates. When an estate is worth $50 or $100 million, does it really matter if a $75,000 Winchester rifle (at RIA) was purchased privately for $5000?
Ive never gotten the deal I describe above. The best I did was negotiate a Colt Cavalry Model revolver that a fellow inherited down to 5k, that was worth maybe $15 to $20k. I thought we had a deal, and explained that this revolver might bring much more at auction, but maybe not, it’s a gamble and cash in hand was far better. Only to find out I was being played. I negotiated this deal, only to discover that he would rather sell it locally, and he let it go for even less, a few grand, I think, plus some used ski equipment.
I bring this up because I know of a local gun shop that, according to an ex employee, gets great deals nearly every day off local estates. He told me, if someone brings in a Winchester 1895 rifle with condition they inherited, and they might just want it gone, they offer them $500 for it, even though it’s a $4000 rifle. The seller is happy, the gun shop is happy…
Ansd, so where do you draw the line? Is it unethical to buy a Winchester rifle for $9000 and turn around and sell it for $10,000? What about purchasing at 5k and selling at 10k? Or 1k and then 10k? I’ve heard of some folks getting great deals when they meet someone before they get in line to turn in what was once someone’s prized Winchester for a $50 WalMart gift card.
So let me get this straight! You negotiated a 15 to 20K colt DOWN to 5k instead of purchasing at an original asking price. And you are worried about how dealers price their guns for sale
November 7, 2015
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I’ve been offered a few guns from estates and it has been frustrating. The heirs had some unrealistic expectations and had no idea that the guns they were offering were not the same quality as the guns they found in a quick internet search. I’ve never been offered a $5000 rifle for $500 but at the moment I’d be obliged to offer to find a buyer at a fair price. OTOH the executors should not expect full price if they want a quick sale to a dealer or collector who will be trying to resell it. As we know it takes considerable time and money to market collectable firearms. When buying an entire collection there are always a few that will be difficult or even impossible to resell. We need to remember that most folks don’t know much about the guns we love. In many cases they have no idea what they have.
Mike
antler1 said
So let me get this straight! You negotiated a 15 to 20K colt DOWN to 5k instead of purchasing at an original asking price. And you are worried about how dealers price their guns for sale
There was no asking price. What do you think it’s worth? Seller was aware of RIA prices, realized it was a gamble, needed cash NOW. It was 10 hrs away, he sold it locally, never mentioned me coming up to get it. Someone on this forum got it, BTW.
It goes the other way, got to even it out somehow. I have a shotgun I might be lucky to get 50% of what I paid for it 15 years ago. It’s not a high end shotgun, but I fell for the “rarity” of a 20 gauge S c S.
antler1 said
So let me get this straight! You negotiated a 15 to 20K colt DOWN to 5k instead of purchasing at an original asking price. And you are worried about how dealers price their guns for sale
I should also mention that the purchaser, who will not be named, is a member of several of these forums. And he negotiated down from what I did, and he had no qualms about doing so. And so I’m in the wrong?
I contacted him about purchasing this revolver and was basically told it will be coming up for sale at RIA sooner or later. No bargains there.
mrcvs said
Ive never gotten the deal I describe above. The best I did was negotiate a Colt Cavalry Model revolver that a fellow inherited down to 5k, that was worth maybe $15 to $20k. I thought we had a deal, and explained that this revolver might bring much more at auction, but maybe not, it’s a gamble and cash in hand was far better. Only to find out I was being played. I negotiated this deal, only to discover that he would rather sell it locally, and he let it go for even less, a few grand, I think, plus some used ski equipment.I bring this up because I know of a local gun shop that, according to an ex employee, gets great deals nearly every day off local estates. He told me, if someone brings in a Winchester 1895 rifle with condition they inherited, and they might just want it gone, they offer them $500 for it, even though it’s a $4000 rifle. The seller is happy, the gun shop is happy…
Not a rare scenario–a collector, probably a friend of the deceased, knowing of such & such, repeatedly conveys his ardent desire to purchase s&s from the heirs “when they are ready” to dispose of the beloved family heirloom, calls one day to find it’s been sold at nearest gunshop or to next-door neighbor; the family is “so sorry,” but they just didn’t think! Owning a gunshop, at least in any reasonably prosperous community, can be a bonanza, & I too have seen incredible guns bought, I know, for pennys on the dollar. What does a collector “owe” the heirs in the rare (today) situation of learning of guns that haven’t (yet) been sent to an auction house? Common courtesy, & nothing more.
antler1 said
So let me get this straight! You negotiated a 15 to 20K colt DOWN to 5k instead of purchasing at an original asking price. And you are worried about how dealers price their guns for sale
You can see no diff between a dealer buying strictly to make a profit, items that are simply “stock” to him, vs a collector buying to add to his own collection?
The way I interpreted Ted’s comment (to which you object) is that it was a general response to the general comment Ian made and that I quoted above (my underline). If anyone were to get tweaked about it, it would be Ian, who seemed (to me) to be saying that he would seize the opportunity (“strike while the iron is hot”) to purchase a firearm at well under what he knew to be it’s true value, and would have “no qualms about this”. Louis Luttrell said
Nor would I. Though I’m still waiting for that hypothetical situation to present itself, & my time is fast running out.
clarence said
antler1 said
So let me get this straight! You negotiated a 15 to 20K colt DOWN to 5k instead of purchasing at an original asking price. And you are worried about how dealers price their guns for sale
You can see no diff between a dealer buying strictly to make a profit, items that are simply “stock” to him, vs a collector buying to add to his own collection?
Clarence, RIGHT! Why is it wrong for me to buy something at 25 cents on the dollar every now and again, should I even have that opportunity, when the LGS is buying at 10 cents on the dollar or less?
I would love to have such an opportunity to own a LGS and do just that. Except the LGS was inherited, on prime real estate I could never afford, on a major highway, with a sign that says We Pay CASH for Guns! If I had such a shop, it wouldn’t be prime real estate and I couldn’t certainly do as well.
I think when it comes to what is, “right” or “wrong” or, “moral” or “ethical” we could bring up compelling examples where we would likely have strong consensus. However, there’s a lot of middle ground – shades of grey – where it gets murkier. And in individual situations there can be a lot of variables in play – some of which are apparent to an outside observer and some are not.
I was thinking about the topic of, “full” disclosure when selling a piece. At the compelling end, if I buy a gun and then send it off the be reblued, I think most of us would agree I should disclose that to prospective buyers. But let’s say I buy the gun and have done nothing to it – it was not disclosed to me as reblued – it arrives – I don’t suspect it’s been reblued – I show it to several others and they think it’s fine – and then one collector comes along and pronounces it is reblued. Do I now put, “reblued” in the ad when I sell it? Am I failing to engage in full disclosure because one collector thought it was reblued? Do I have to tell prospective buyers that one collector thought it was reblued?
This reminds me of a widow I know of who consigned her deceased husband to a big auction house (not Winchesters or Colts). The auction description-writer stated that several of the rifles were reblued – when they had not been 
We often see the big auction house description-writers as devious (and very often they are) but sometimes they just don’t know.
steve004 said
We often see the big auction house description-writers as devious (and very often they are) but sometimes they just don’t know.
OFTEN they “don’t know,” but that’s not incompatible with being devious–far from it!
November 5, 2014
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mrcvs said
So, what would you do if a widow or heir presented you with a pre war Model 70 in .375 H & H with condition and no after market modifications, and you are told that it was bought for $1000 back in 1985, “and I’d sure like to get that for it”. Do you still dicker? I’m sure some folks might say, well, it’s a used gun, probably not worth more than $800. Do you give the heir $1000? Both parties are satisfied. Do you give $1500? Makes the heir feel a bit better. But that can backfire. If offered $1500, that’s odd, maybe it’s worth far more. I’ll go elsewhere and get more…like RIA.
Hi Ian-
Since your hypothetical was based on a pre-64 Model 70, I’m assuming you were asking me? 
I have to say that precise scenario has never presented itself (involving a pre-war Model 70 375 Magnum), but somewhat related (real life) situations have arisen…
For example, I am the guy who has the “honor” of fielding most of the WACA queries about “What’s my Model 70 worth?”. These come in mainly via the “Contact Us” portal of this site, and are not uncommonly from “widows” and “heirs” who truly know nothing at all about firearms. Of course most of the time the guns have no collector interest or value and I have to tell them that. Occasionally however, it is a gun of significant value/collector interest. I’m thinking of three examples, two within the last year… Have I ever “undervalued” the gun and then offered to buy it? Even when the person asking had expressed their desire to sell it?
No I have not… Given sufficiently clear photos, I’ve told the person what similar rifles have been bringing in the current market based on my “survey” observations, giving only the caveat that I cannot truly tell from photos alone whether their gun was truly comparable. In each of the three cases I’m thinking of, where the person had expressed an interest in selling, I did (after asking the would be “seller’s” permission), put them in touch with WACA members who might have an interest. Then I bowed out… In each of these cases, a deal was made, the price was “fair”, nobody got “taken”, and as far as I know both the “know nothing heir” and the “buyer” were satisfied. But I’m sure that the buyer had to pay more for the gun (based on my “valuation”) than if they had been “first on the scene”… Was that a “disservice” to collectors, as your Colt Forum companions seem to think? Maybe it was??? 
If people here feel strongly enough, I’m sure the Membership can get Bert to replace me on the “historian” list with somebody more willing than I to abuse a “position of trust”…
OTOH…
I have had the opportunity to acquire Model 70s for my collection (including some very rare ones) at prices well below “market/auction” value, from other Collectors (even dealers at times). Is it “ethical” to acquire a collector gun for (sometimes far) less than what it might bring at auction? In the cases I’m thinking of, BOTH the “buyer” (Me) and “seller” knew exactly what were we doing and exactly what the gun could be “worth” on the open market. I think that sometimes (to a fellow Collector) knowing where a gun is going is worth more than the potential monetary return. It sure as heck ain’t my “good looks” or “irrepressible charm”… 
But I am a collector, not a dealer, and when I buy a gun it is with the intention of keeping it (at least through my Kid’s lifetimes)…
One more scenario in which I have “no qualms”…
On occasion, I’ve found guns in auctions or on dealer websites that were not described accurately and dramatically undervalued. I suspect we all have… Would I tell the dealer or auction house? Heck no… One case was my “Van Orden Sniper”, which IMHO is the best one I’ve yet seen come up for sale. It was in an RIA auction and described as a Model 70 Target rifle with an aftermarket stock. I “won” it at auction for the ridiculously high price (for what it was described as) of $2500. If you didn’t notice, there were three “Van Orden Sniper’s” (all genuine) in an RIA Premier Auction earlier this year, described as such, and they brought between $17,000 and $22,000 apiece. Was it “ethical” for me to acquire one at maybe 15% of its “current market value”? No “qualms” about that one either…
Just my take,
Lou
P.S. If I do find that minty pre-war Model 70 375 MAGNUM for $1,000 I’ll pass along your contact info…
WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters
Louis Luttrell said
mrcvs said
So, what would you do if a widow or heir presented you with a pre war Model 70 in .375 H & H with condition and no after market modifications, and you are told that it was bought for $1000 back in 1985, “and I’d sure like to get that for it”. Do you still dicker? I’m sure some folks might say, well, it’s a used gun, probably not worth more than $800. Do you give the heir $1000? Both parties are satisfied. Do you give $1500? Makes the heir feel a bit better. But that can backfire. If offered $1500, that’s odd, maybe it’s worth far more. I’ll go elsewhere and get more…like RIA.
Have I ever “undervalued” the gun and then offered to buy it? Even when the person asking had expressed their desire to sell it?
No I have not… Given sufficiently clear photos, I’ve told the person what similar rifles have been bringing in the current market based on my “survey” observations, giving only the caveat that I cannot truly tell from photos alone whether their gun was truly comparable. In each of the three cases I’m thinking of, where the person had expressed an interest in selling, I did (after asking the would be “seller’s” permission), put them in touch with WACA members who might have an interest. Then I bowed out… In each of these cases, a deal was made, the price was “fair”, nobody got “taken”, and as far as I know both the “know nothing heir” and the “buyer” were satisfied. But I’m sure that the buyer had to pay more for the gun (based on my “valuation”) than if they had been “first on the scene”… Was that a “disservice” to collectors, as your Colt Forum companions seem to think? Maybe it was???
Just my take,
Lou
Lou (and others)… I specifically put you on the Historian list for the precise reason you detailed above. I also use that exact same approach with the 100s of people who contact me with every month with their requests for information. All too often I hear “I was offered less than half of the amount you have mentioned”. Have I received offers to buy from people… I most certainly have, but in 99% of the cases, I turn them down and point them in a direction to sell their Winchester at a fair amount. Like you, I am purely a collector, and not motivated by the potential profit that drive all of the dealers out there.
You are not getting off of my list!
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Bert H. said
Louis Luttrell said
mrcvs said
So, what would you do if a widow or heir presented you with a pre war Model 70 in .375 H & H with condition and no after market modifications, and you are told that it was bought for $1000 back in 1985, “and I’d sure like to get that for it”. Do you still dicker? I’m sure some folks might say, well, it’s a used gun, probably not worth more than $800. Do you give the heir $1000? Both parties are satisfied. Do you give $1500? Makes the heir feel a bit better. But that can backfire. If offered $1500, that’s odd, maybe it’s worth far more. I’ll go elsewhere and get more…like RIA.
Have I ever “undervalued” the gun and then offered to buy it? Even when the person asking had expressed their desire to sell it?
No I have not… Given sufficiently clear photos, I’ve told the person what similar rifles have been bringing in the current market based on my “survey” observations, giving only the caveat that I cannot truly tell from photos alone whether their gun was truly comparable. In each of the three cases I’m thinking of, where the person had expressed an interest in selling, I did (after asking the would be “seller’s” permission), put them in touch with WACA members who might have an interest. Then I bowed out… In each of these cases, a deal was made, the price was “fair”, nobody got “taken”, and as far as I know both the “know nothing heir” and the “buyer” were satisfied. But I’m sure that the buyer had to pay more for the gun (based on my “valuation”) than if they had been “first on the scene”… Was that a “disservice” to collectors, as your Colt Forum companions seem to think? Maybe it was???
Just my take,
Lou
Lou (and others)… I specifically put you on the Historian list for the precise reason you detailed above. I also use that exact same approach with the 100s of people who contact me with every month with their requests for information. All too often I hear “I was offered less than half of the amount you have mentioned”. Have I received offers to buy from people… I most certainly have, but in 99% of the cases, I turn them down and point them in a direction to sell their Winchester at a fair amount. Like you, I am purely a collector, and not motivated by the potential profit that drive all of the dealers out there.
You are not getting off of my list!
Bert
I am purely a collector as well. However, I do want to biy quality as cheaply as possible as that frees up funds for the acquisition of a greater number of quality pieces.
Resale value is not my concern.
November 5, 2014
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C’mon Bert!!! You mean there’s NO possibility of parole??? 
It is true that I’ve been able to find WACA member “buyers” for a few “uninformed sellers” that contacted us via the WACA “Contact Us” portal. Some nice guns too!!! But not very many… Even one that I “would” have bought, but considered myself to be in COI b/c of how I learned about it… Insofar as I know, the sale prices ended up being in the vicinity of the value I placed on the gun, so nobody got a “steal” but nobody got “taken” either…
It would be nice if the real “collectors” like you, Ian, and me (and LOTS of the WACA membership) had more opportunities to get the guns we want at fair (to everyone) prices… Best way I can think of to do that is to “network” (especially within WACA), share information, and deal honestly. I have little sympathy for the “investors”, “speculators” and “gun flippers” and really don’t have any solid information (if such exists) on how much of an adverse effect they have on the collector gun market. Maybe a lot…
Best,
Lou
WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters
Interesting topic, and I’ll add my 2 cents. I seem to usually buy what I have at the offered price. If I don’t like the price, I leave it. I don’t like to negotiate. If the seller has something I really want, and I feel it’s more than I can pay, I might ask if that’s the best he can do. If I’m asked to make an offer, I will, if I’m not, I won’t. In the old days, you could buy guns at a garage sale, and I did get a few that way. I always paid the asking price from my neighbors. I did have one occasion where the neighbor was uncertain what she wanted for it, and when she wanted more than I could pay after figuring that out after a week, I just told her that was too much for me. I don’t know enough to place a value for someone else, because it depends on how much I want it that determines what I’ll pay. I’m always happy with what I pay and figure the seller is too. If a friend or family asked me about value, I’ll give the best answer I can. One time a family member wanted a hefty premium on a family heirloom, one of my sons bit the bullet and bought it, so things can go the other way too. People are greedy.
I’ve bought guns at auction too. I usually only buy at auctions where I’m close enough to inspect, but sometimes I take a chance if I call and ask questions, and get the right answers. I’ll take a chance, but not stick my neck out too far. Sometimes ignorance is bliss too after you get it home.
I bought a M70 in 375 Magnum recently….that also perked my interest in this thread. It was a bit more than a grand though, but that’s ok.
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