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Hello, what’s the best way to go about purchasing good quality, correct antique Winchesters? I feel joining here was a very good early step. I’m an experienced collector, mostly in handmade custom knives. I’m actually president of the Custom Knife Collectors Association which is a very similar collecting organization to what you have here. Anyway I know little about Winchester except I’ve always liked them.
The more dealer sites I visit the more I realize how cautious one has to be in this endeavor. After a lot of reading and seeing literally hundreds of antique Winchester photos I’m most interested in 1866 & 1873’s.
I was wondering what dealers are best to do business with? (I’ve read enough here to know to stay away from Selling My Dad’s) 
How about Rock Island Auctions? I’ve received their Auction magazines for years and they really seem to offer nice firearms.
Anyway, hope this post isn’t out of line here. I’ve helped A LOT of novice custom knife collectors get started down the right path over the years so hope I can find some help as well.
Winchester Model 1873 44-40 circa 1886
Kevin,
Welcome to the Forum. The best way to start collecting is to find a good collector to teach you about recognizing real blue, case, wood finish and fit. Read as many Winchester books as you can find to learn about configurations and the changes in them over time. Then don’t be afraid to ask questions here. The biggest mistake some collectors make is they ask the questions here after they have bought it and its too late.
As to RIA, they are in the business of selling guns for the highest price they can get just like every other auction house. The best way to deal with them is to look at the guns in person so you know what your buying. RIA displays some of the guns from their upcoming auction at big gun shows like Tulsa. I have noticed that some auction houses have gotten better at being more forthcoming with defects or refinishing.
Bob
WACA Life Member--- NRA Life Member---- Cody Firearms member since 1991 Researching the Winchester 1873's
Email: [email protected]
I think it starts with “Bring lots of money!” Everything from there falls into… “The devil in the details!”
My take. 🙂
Are you into it for the investment and want a return on your money or do you want to collect them for shooting and having fun with them?
Bob
WACA Life Member--- NRA Life Member---- Cody Firearms member since 1991 Researching the Winchester 1873's
Email: [email protected]
1873man said
Are you into it for the investment and want a return on your money or do you want to collect them for shooting and having fun with them?
Bob
Thanks for your replies.
Good question and the answer is both.
While not totally for investment purposes, I want rifles of quality where if sold down the road I would most likely make a little or at least recoup my investment. And while I wouldn’t necessarily shoot them, I prefer rifles that are capable of being fired safely.
Also starting out, I would like a 1866 and a 1873 that are as original and in good a condition as possible as opposed to highly optioned and/or rare pieces. Having said that would a budget of say $10,000 for the two be realistic or had I better plan on spending more?
Winchester Model 1873 44-40 circa 1886
I think it starts with “Bring lots of money!” Everything from there falls into… “The devil in the details!”
Good point
as I recall I had to set up a separate slush fund.
I would suggest a bank in a different town that the Wife doesn’t frequent,because once my X saw me heading in To a bank that wasn’t our regular joint account, with my secret bonus ,and I had some splaining to do
Phil
Kevin Jones said
1873man said
Are you into it for the investment and want a return on your money or do you want to collect them for shooting and having fun with them?
Bob
Thanks for your replies.
Good question and the answer is both.
While not totally for investment purposes, I want rifles of quality where if sold down the road I would most likely make a little or at least recoup my investment. And while I wouldn’t necessarily shoot them, I prefer rifles that are capable of being fired safely.
Also starting out, I would like a 1866 and a 1873 that are as original and in good a condition as possible as opposed to highly optioned and/or rare pieces. Having said that would a budget of say $10,000 for the two be realistic or had I better plan on spending more?
Kevin,
In answer toy your question, No, $10,000 is not enough to purchase both a nice condition Model 1866 and Model 1873. You could very easily need a few thousand more for just the Model 1866. $10K would buy a very nice Model 1873 though.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Bert H. said
Kevin Jones said
1873man said
Are you into it for the investment and want a return on your money or do you want to collect them for shooting and having fun with them?
Bob
Thanks for your replies.
Good question and the answer is both.
While not totally for investment purposes, I want rifles of quality where if sold down the road I would most likely make a little or at least recoup my investment. And while I wouldn’t necessarily shoot them, I prefer rifles that are capable of being fired safely.
Also starting out, I would like a 1866 and a 1873 that are as original and in good a condition as possible as opposed to highly optioned and/or rare pieces. Having said that would a budget of say $10,000 for the two be realistic or had I better plan on spending more?
Kevin,
In answer toy your question, No, $10,000 is not enough to purchase both a nice condition Model 1866 and Model 1873. You could very easily need a few thousand more for just the Model 1866. $10K would buy a very nice Model 1873 though.
Bert
Thank you as that’s just the type of info I’m looking for.
In looking over the on-line dealer’s websites, I’m seeing quite a bit available in both 73 and even 66 models in the $5000 range. So what this is telling me is that these are not necessarily ones I should be considering?
Are there honest Winchester “experts” who act as agents (even for a fee) for newer collectors in finding the “right pieces” to help reduce a novice collector’s risk? I have worked with novice custom knife collectors in finding/suggesting what they purchase early on in their collecting.
Winchester Model 1873 44-40 circa 1886
Kevin,
I highly suspect that any Model 1866 you may find that is priced under $5000 is either in relatively poor condition, or it is no longer factory original. It definitely would not be an investment grade gun. Very decent Model 1873 3rd variation rifles can be found for under $5k.
In answer to your question, Yes, there are a few. Please contact me via PM if you want to discuss it further.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Kevin,
This is what I tell beginning collectors. If you have $10,000 to put into guns, buy the best $10,000 gun you can get and as long as its a righteous gun it will go up in value faster than if you put $10,000 into several guns. The higher the condition of the gun the faster it goes up in value. You have to fight the urge to buy an collection right away. A good collection starts with one gun. Right now guns that are in the upper 90% condition category are in high demand at auction houses right now and are going up fast. The lesser guns are holding and the bottom guns are going backwards at auction.
A rule of thumb for Winchester collecting is the bigger the hole in the barrel the more its worth. A octagon barrel rifle is worth more than a round barrel. A rifle butt plate is better than a shotgun butt and a full magazine is better than half mag. There are collectors out there that like the round barrels or shotgun butts but since the majority of collector want a octagon barrel, full mag with a rifle butt in the big caliber, the prices will always higher for those. I have first hand proof of that when ever I tried to sell a round barrel rifle. Now once you add other special features to the mix that formula can go out the window.
Finding a Winchester “expert” who act as agents for a fee are out there, they are called dealers. The problem you will encounter with dealers is they start out finding you good guns and if they can’t find enough good guns to supply his clients he soon is peddling problem guns. I have run into this myself. The best way to get good guns is when a collector is liquidating or has bought a better gun and wants to make room for it or needs the money. Some of my best guns came from collectors going through a divorce.
Bob
WACA Life Member--- NRA Life Member---- Cody Firearms member since 1991 Researching the Winchester 1873's
Email: [email protected]
Kevin:
Here is something we put together a to assist folks that are getting started. Its intent was to focus on the factors that make up the value of a collectible Winchester:
“You never pay too much for a Winchester–sometimes you simply buy them a little early“…George Madis
Rarity – A collectible firearm’s value will generally be increased in inverse proportion to the number of pieces manufactured along with any rare special-ordered features it may have.
Originality – The piece must have all of the attributes of the weapon as it was received from the factory when new. Refinished steel and/or wood surfaces, altered components, cut down or replaced barrel, magazine, stock, replaced screws, etc., will materially diminish collector value.
Desirability – The model and configuration has a large impact on the gun’s desirability and therefore its value: i.e.: a Henry versus a Winchester – Lee model. Also, certain features are desirable and will sometimes even outweigh rarity. A .44 caliber rifle or carbine will always be valued higher than the .38 caliber which will always be valued higher than a .32 caliber Winchester with all other features being the same. An octagon barreled, full magazine, crescent butt configuration will always have greater market value than a round barreled, half magazine shotgun butt configuration with all other attributes and features being equal.
Condition – Most dealers agree that condition is what sells in today’s market place. Values will span a 10 fold range depending on the percentage of original condition. A piece that is in 100% original condition will be worth at least 10 times more than a piece that is in 10% original condition. However, this value equation is not linear. The value increase between an 85% piece and a 95% piece being significantly greater than 10%!
Age – the older the piece the greater the value given similar model characteristics. A First model 1873 Winchester will always be worth more than a Second model which will always be worth more than a Third model having the same condition and factory specifications. An antique (pre-1899) will be worth more than a non-antique (post-1898).
Factory Documentation – Factory records which list a gun’s configuration are available only within certain serial ranges. Generally, but not in all cases, a Winchester which falls into the documented (or “letterable”) serial range has more value than an identical piece which is outside the range.
Historical Significance – A piece with authentic documentation evidencing a role in an historical event will always have significantly more value than a similar piece w/o historical significance. Values can be increased as much as 100 fold. An 1873 Springfield carbine worth $2,500 might bring $250,000 if it can be documented as being present in the Custer fight at the Little Big Horn River in 1876. However, historical documentation is difficult to prove and can be faked easier than physically altering the weapon itself!
Provenance – A firearm that has an irrefutable record of ownership will have more value than an identical piece without such provenance and the more prominent the former owners, the more the value.
Current Market – Collector likes and dislikes vary over time. Some items which were most desirable last year may give way to different items this year. This is the least predictable and most difficult factor in determining the value of any collector piece. The high end collector fraternity can be very thinly populated at times. It only takes two collectors to escalate prices at auction to astronomical heights making recent auction results a poor guideline.
Complicating the process is the fact that the weight given to each of the above factors will vary by model and by manufacturer which makes it impossible to condense these factors to a universal mathematical equation.
WACA Life Benefactor Member
NRA Life Member
Bert H. said
Kevin,
I highly suspect that any Model 1866 you may find that is priced under $5000 is either in relatively poor condition, or it is no longer factory original. It definitely would not be an investment grade gun. Very decent Model 1873 3rd variation rifles can be found for under $5k.
In answer to your question, Yes, there are a few. Please contact me via PM if you want to discuss it further.
Bert
Thank you Bert, very helpful info.
I see models referred to as first, second, third. I’m assuming that’s has to do with when rifle was made/serial #s?
Winchester Model 1873 44-40 circa 1886
Kevin Jones said
Bert H. said
Kevin,
I highly suspect that any Model 1866 you may find that is priced under $5000 is either in relatively poor condition, or it is no longer factory original. It definitely would not be an investment grade gun. Very decent Model 1873 3rd variation rifles can be found for under $5k.
In answer to your question, Yes, there are a few. Please contact me via PM if you want to discuss it further.
Bert
Thank you Bert, very helpful info.
I see models referred to as first, second, third. I’m assuming that’s has to do with when riffle was made/serial #s?
Kevin,
Welcome the world of Winchesters! They can be a great and fulfilling investment if purchased wisely. One necessary tool for an aspiring Winchester collector is books. I highly recommend getting THE WINCHESTER BOOK by George Madis. This book does a great job of showing nearly all of the variations of each model. It does have some small discrepancies, but it will provide a great deal of important information to you. There are many other books by different authors that are model specific, which go into more detail. But Madis’ book is a must have!
Kevin,
The first model goes up to about 31,000 and is identified by the dust cover that is mortised into the receiver top opening and it does not have a trigger block safety. The trigger block safety can be identified by a protrusion with a flat spot on the front top of the lever finger loop. The second goes from about 31,000 to 90,000 and is identified by the dust cover slides on a rail that is screwed to the top of the receiver and they added the trigger block safety. The Third model is identified by the dust cover rail is no longer a separate piece, its machined out of the receiver metal.
https://winchestercollector.org/models/model-1873/
Bob
WACA Life Member--- NRA Life Member---- Cody Firearms member since 1991 Researching the Winchester 1873's
Email: [email protected]
1873man said
Kevin,
This is what I tell beginning collectors. If you have $10,000 to put into guns, buy the best $10,000 gun you can get and as long as its a righteous gun it will go up in value faster than if you put $10,000 into several guns. The higher the condition of the gun the faster it goes up in value. You have to fight the urge to buy an collection right away. A good collection starts with one gun. Right now guns that are in the upper 90% condition category are in high demand at auction houses right now and are going up fast. The lesser guns are holding and the bottom guns are going backwards at auction.
A rule of thumb for Winchester collecting is the bigger the hole in the barrel the more its worth. A octagon barrel rifle is worth more than a round barrel. A rifle butt plate is better than a shotgun butt and a full magazine is better than half mag. There are collectors out there that like the round barrels or shotgun butts but since the majority of collector want a octagon barrel, full mag with a rifle butt in the big caliber, the prices will always higher for those. I have first hand proof of that when ever I tried to sell a round barrel rifle. Now once you add other special features to the mix that formula can go out the window.
Finding a Winchester “expert” who act as agents for a fee are out there, they are called dealers. The problem you will encounter with dealers is they start out finding you good guns and if they can’t find enough good guns to supply his clients he soon is peddling problem guns. I have run into this myself. The best way to get good guns is when a collector is liquidating or has bought a better gun and wants to make room for it or needs the money. Some of my best guns came from collectors going through a divorce.
Bob
Bob, I believe I will narrow my search down initially to one piece most likely a 1873, learn what I can from that experience then more forward with others.
It’s interesting that even though not knowing which features are most sought after by the seasoned collectors, I had already decided that I wanted a 44, octagon, full mag and manufacturer’s letter, if possible. I really didn’t have a preference for butt type, but sounds like the crescent is best way to go.
Thanks for the help, much appreciated.
Winchester Model 1873 44-40 circa 1886
Kevin,
The best things about a 73 is that Cody has all the warehouse records for them so before you buy one, make sure it letter correctly.
Bob
WACA Life Member--- NRA Life Member---- Cody Firearms member since 1991 Researching the Winchester 1873's
Email: [email protected]
Thanks Rick, the list makes a lot of sense and will definitely help. I have printed a copy.
Austin, thanks I will be sure to get a copy of the book.
Bob, good info on the different versions especially regarding how to tell the deference by dust cover type.
I really appreciate you guys sharing all this info. I was hesitant to create this thread, however very glad I did as other newer collectors will benefit from this sharing of info as well.
Winchester Model 1873 44-40 circa 1886
Go to a GOOD antique arms show, lime Baltimore, and handle as many guns as you can. LEARN and STUDY original finishes and refinishes, and know how to tell the difference! You will have an advantageous head start.
August 11, 2015
Offline
kevin,
welcome to the forum. I am a relatively new comer to the forum as well; joined about nine months ago. I have done all the things that the guys previously have said not to do but have had a very good time doing it.
There is another list of things to look for also written by Bert on the forum under Winchester Rifles. I would highly recommend that you read it, print it out, and put into your pocket prior to going to look at any guns. I try to do that all the time now and it gives me a way to get back to basics especially when I see something I want.
I got into this by going to a couple of auctions for no specific reason and then deciding I liked a couple of guns and then coming out as the high bidder on some. For no specific reason, I bought an 1894 rifle with an octagon barrel, a full magazine in a 38-55 caliber in pretty good shape. it was at the end of the auction and the stock had a crack in it that was glued but I got it for a couple of hundred bucks and thought I was a genius.
Anyway, it took off from there. I bought a couple of junkers so that I could learn more about how they work without worrying about damaging them. I bought an 1873 carbine that had a broken hammer spring and took it home just to see how it worked. this is when I joined the organization because I had no idea what I was doing. I asked a couple of questions on the forum and then took the whole gun apart and got it to work again. in taking it apart I found out that it was a first model 1873 and had all matching assembly numbers in the right places. this is when I went and bought a copy of the Madis book and started reading and finally started to get a feel for what I had gotten into.
Anyway, we continue to progress and start to become more discerning and discriminating in what you will buy and what you wont. I find gun shows to be very frustrating for the most part and prefer the auction environment to find potential new guns. I like having a wide variety to view at one time, but would find it difficult to bid on a gun that I cant put my hands on. I believe now that all the warnings about quality and original condition are true. I was at an auction this weekend where an 1873 that was obviously reblued was touted as original finish and the selling price confirms that a number of people believed it. the gun was in pretty good shape but still was reblued and I feel that the auction house is very reputable. however, it is always buyer beware.
I am looking forward to attending the annual meeting in cody this summer and interacting with the other members and getting some feedback and more education on how to better evaluate potential stock. I can see now where you have to get a core of experts that you trust to help you upgrade your stock and get you the value that I am sure you are looking for, and I believe the people on this forum is a good place to start that process. I also agree on joining the Cody Firearms Museum and participating in searches and letters on the guns you buy. I agree with Bob that I think there is some additional value when you can get a gun that letters.
Welcome once again, and if you live anywhere near Houston Texas I would be happy to go look at some guns with you anytime.
Regards,
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