Log In
Members
Home
Add Reply
Add Topic
Hello Everyone!
I have this model 70 and was recently surprised to find out it is on the Van Orden list. Honestly, I didnt know the list existed until I tried to find information about its history. I have no other documentation on the rifle. I shot it when I was younger at Camp Perry. Any other info from anyone? This website is one of the few it seems to have some information regarding these rifles.Serial #338222
The stock has unfortunately refinished.
November 5, 2014
Offline
Hi Fury-
Nice looking rifle!!! Congrats… 
Did you happen to find this old thread?
I think there might be some interesting information there.
Best,
Lou
WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters
November 5, 2014
Offline
Fury-
The conversation above continues at: https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-swap-meet/wtb-van-orden-model-70s-and-model-70s-serial-number-range-41000-50000/
These rifles do turn up now and again, and as in your case, often it’s not recognized that they were sold by Evaluators Ltd.
Best,
Lou
WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters
Hi Lou – thanks for the links! I guess I am confused as mine is listed on that page in the book. Is that a different list than what was sold by Evaluators, LTD?
My serial number 338222 is called out as shipped to US ARMY in Philadelphia, PA
My Van Orden M70 is on that list as # 272958, Aug. 12, 1954. Who is ON TIC? Thanks, Big Larry
Big Larry said
My Van Orden M70 is on that list as # 272958, Aug. 12, 1954. Who is ON TIC? Thanks, Big Larry
Don’t know what it means, BL, but here’s a link to a discussion about it:
http://www.jouster2.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-9993.html
James
Thanks James. I have copies of papers I got from Peter Senich relating to my Van Orden being at Camp Perry NM’s in 1954. Also, some papers of the equipment and ammo for sale at Perry. I got this rifle as a gift from a Retired USA Sgt. Major, who was double Distinguished with rifle and pistol.
Supposedly, the rifle was ultimately purchased by the US Army, according to Mr. Senich.
My rifle was marked US on the receiver ring and was ground off at some later date. With a little imagination and a good glass you can still see the US.
This rifle is also pictured in “One Round War”, although it had been restocked with a much later sporting stock.
I was offered, at no cost, an original period target stock, which we fitted to the bbld. action.
My papers say the rifle was shipped with the target stock as a Van Orden Sniper.
The Lyman STS scope I got with the rifle was trashed to the point that Mr. Parson wanted near $900 to fix it. Near the price of a new in the box scope.
I sold the scope for $125 to a guy for parts recovery.
Still, would like to find out what QN TIC means for sure. Thanks, Big Larry
November 5, 2014
Offline
Hi Fury-
My understanding is that M70 competition rifles offered by Evaluators Ltd, the business Brig Gen Geo Van Orden (USMC ret) operated out of Triangle VA, came in two “flavors”. The “Van Orden Sniper” as it is called, had an unchecked, oil (not lacquer) finished, STANDARD STYLE stock with special butt stock dimensions (less drop, more pitch, hence slightly less LOP) than a regular M70 sporting stock. The rifle I have, S/N 351439, is of this flavor.
The second flavor was the “Special Target”. This rifle had an oil finished MARKSMAN style stock, also described as having “special dimensions”, but I have not had to opportunity to measure one of these so I do not know how (if at all) the dimensions varied from a regular G7044C (M70 30-06 target rifle) stock. Your rifle is of the “Special Target” variety.
*** I tried repeatedly this evening to upload images of the description of each of these “flavors” scanned from the Evaluators Ltd documents that accompanied the rifles (to document the above statements). But tonite the WACA website has vexed me at every turn… Despite being .jpeg files of only about 100 kB, I am getting a “invalid file type” error message ***
To further complicate matters, SOME of the Van Orden rifles (maybe 90 or so) were sold to civilians. Mine was originally sold to Victor Dawson of Silver Spring MD. However the majority (another couple hundred or so) were sold to the US military for marksmanship team use. Yours and Big Larry’s fall into this category. BOTH Sniper and Special Target rifles sold to BOTH civilians and military are included in the S/N list in Vol 1 of Chandler (the list you showed p2 of in your OP). It is stated that some number of the Van Orden rifles sold to the military for competition use did find themselves pressed into service as sniper rifles in Viet Nam, despite this not having been their intended use when originally acquired.
FWIW… I have set of original Evaluators Ltd literature that accompanied the “Special Target”, and if interested I can send you a link to scanned digital copies (via DropBox). Just send me a PM with an e-mail address. The files are too big to load here – even when the WACA site is working… 
Cheers,
Lou
WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters
November 5, 2014
Offline
It’s funny how these things turn up in the strangest places…
Did anyone notice that a VO Sniper rifle sold in this month’s Ward’s Auction? https://www.wardscollectibles.com/viewitem.php?item=5084
S/N 338247, shipped to US Army, Philadelphia according to Chandler’s list. Well documented with DCM sales slip. Missing scope blocks, Lyman 48WH looks correct, Redfield globe sight probably an in-service change. Stock’s reportedly been lightly sanded and varnished, either before or after leaving the service of the US Army. Otherwise might be correct dimensionally. As shipped from Evaluators Ltd should have no varnish, just BLO finish. Sold for $1983 hammer price, which is probably a good price if the stock ain’t too messed with.
I’ve been watching this gun for the past month, but did not bid as I have one (S/N 351439) and that’s enough…
Best,
Lou
WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters
Louis Luttrell said
Hi Fury-My understanding is that M70 competition rifles offered by Evaluators Ltd, the business Brig Gen Geo Van Orden (USMC ret) operated out of Triangle VA, came in two “flavors”. The “Van Orden Sniper” as it is called, had an unchecked, oil (not lacquer) finished, STANDARD STYLE stock with special butt stock dimensions (less drop, more pitch, hence slightly less LOP) than a regular M70 sporting stock. The rifle I have, S/N 351439, is of this flavor.
The second flavor was the “Special Target”. This rifle had an oil finished MARKSMAN style stock, also described as having “special dimensions”, but I have not had to opportunity to measure one of these so I do not know how (if at all) the dimensions varied from a regular G7044C (M70 30-06 target rifle) stock. Your rifle is of the “Special Target” variety.
To further complicate matters, SOME of the Van Orden rifles (maybe 90 or so) were sold to civilians. Mine was originally sold to Victor Dawson of Silver Spring MD. However the majority (another couple hundred or so) were sold to the US military for marksmanship team use. Yours and Big Larry’s fall into this category. BOTH Sniper and Special Target rifles sold to BOTH civilians and military are included in the S/N list in Vol 1 of Chandler (the list you showed p2 of in your OP). It is stated that some number of the Van Orden rifles sold to the military for competition use did find themselves pressed into service as sniper rifles in Viet Nam, despite this not having been their intended use when originally acquired.
FWIW… I have set of original Evaluators Ltd literature that accompanied the “Special Target”, and if interested I can send you a link to scanned digital copies (via DropBox). Just send me a PM with an e-mail address. The files are too big to load here – even when the WACA site is working…
Cheers,
Lou
Louis, save them as a PDF and then you can post them.
November 5, 2014
Offline
Hi Chuck-
For me at least, this website will not support pdf file uploads. I’ll put jpeg copies below, but if anybody wants the pdf files I can share the DropBox link.
Anyway, this is the only set of original Van Orden paperwork I’ve run across. The outer envelope is obviously tattered and the mimeograph sheets are a little faded, but everything is still legible. The western, Lyman, and Nite-Lite brochures with the “Evaluators Ltd” rubber stamp were also in the envelope.
As stated on the envelope, this packet accompanied a “Special Target” rifle (the ones with Marksman stocks, not with the uncheckered standard “Sniper” stock like the Ward’s gun) shipped to the Quartermaster General USMC and dated June 11, 1955.
Best,
Lou
WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters
1 Guest(s)
