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I have heard over the years that the 401 Winchester was hunted with in India but I haven’t been able to find any documented “accounts” of said hunts. There are 1910 SLs that are retailed marked from India by Manton, Calcutta and others so I know they were there. I’m just trying to get an idea of how effective they were. My library is inadequate. Any help, comments, advice will be greatly appreciated.
Can’t help myself so artsy-fartsy photo –
WACA No. 9886. Constantly learning about Model 1907 and Model 1910 Self-Loading Rifles.
I have never read or even heard of anything to read, about hunting (or any other) use of the .401SL in Asia or anywhere else.
Indeed, as a modest collector of hunting literature i can’t recall reading any stories of any of the Winchester self-loaders used to hunt game animals, except for the little Model 1903 .22 Auto.
If we broaden the definition of game animal to include bank guards, histories of the Dillinger Gang usually include some mention of the killing of one by the egregious Homer van Meter with a single .351 round from his Model 1907 that had been modified to full auto.
The only way I know to learn the probable effectiveness of a .401SL soft point on a Bengal Tiger would be to
(1) conduct penetration and tissue disruption tests on ballistic gelatin at a typical machan shooting distance, expending a king’s ransom of collectible ammunition in the process. Then,
(2) Research reliable non-fiction literature to accumulate the various cartridges proven to have knocked over a big tiger without more than one round plus a safety shot.
(3) Research the arms and ammunition literature for ballistic tests similar to what you have in hand for the 401SL.
(4) See if the .401 numbers come close to any of the others.
The alternative would be to locate any elderly member of the Dallas Safari Club who is more than 20 miles from home, ply him with his favorite “Wild Turkey and Coke” until he begins to reminisce, and then ask him your question.
Either method is as reliable as the other.
- Bill
WACA # 65205; life member, NRA; member, TGCA; member, TSRA; amateur preservationist
"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.
I am a geek and have all my books in an excel spreadsheet with one of the categories being the “continent” for the hunting books.
I only have 3 listed for India –
– Man-Eaters of Kumaon (written in 1944)
– Illustrated Library of Travel, Exploration and Adventure (1872)
– Shooting in Cooch Behar (printed in 1908)
Of those 3, the only one that might fit your timeframe of the Winchester 1910 is the Man-Eaters of Kumaon. Unfortunately, my great spreadsheet doesn’t tell me WHERE in the library it is located and I didn’t see it in the hunting book aisle on the first pass but I do remember it has a green cover…..
Best Regards,
WACA Life Member #6284 - Specializing in Pre-64 Winchester .22 Rimfire
Online
Ballistically, the .401 SL was no slouch.
As advertised in the October 1911 Catalog No. 77
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
JWA said
I am a geek and have all my books in an excel spreadsheet with one of the categories being the “continent” for the hunting books.I only have 3 listed for India –
– Man-Eaters of Kumaon (written in 1944)
– Illustrated Library of Travel, Exploration and Adventure (1872)
– Shooting in Cooch Behar (printed in 1908)
Of those 3, the only one that might fit your timeframe of the Winchester 1910 is the Man-Eaters of Kumaon. Unfortunately, my great spreadsheet doesn’t tell me WHERE in the library it is located and I didn’t see it in the hunting book aisle on the first pass but I do remember it has a green cover…..
Best Regards,
Jeff, (a) if they are in an Excel file, and (b) if you had a column for a Dewey number, and (c) if you sourced enough paper book place markers on which you could harmlessly ink the Dewey number, keeping the paper marker harmlessly held between pages of each book, and (d) you arranged your library in Dewey number order —- well, you could instantly find said book.
You could achieve Ultimate Geekness by converting your Excel file to an Access database with multiple indices and a pull down query interface.
[If you were stuck in the Eighties like me, I’d have suggested Dbase III+.]
- Bill
WACA # 65205; life member, NRA; member, TGCA; member, TSRA; amateur preservationist
"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.
JWA said
I am a geek and have all my books in an excel spreadsheet with one of the categories being the “continent” for the hunting books.– Man-Eaters of Kumaon (written in 1944)
– Shooting in Cooch Behar (printed in 1908)
Both of these books have been digitized and are available online for free. You can do a search function in them online. Neither the words Winchester or Self-Loading comes up in either books. So that may save you some time and trouble. As I don’t think you will find any stories of Winchesters or Self-loading rifles in these two volumes.
https://archive.org/details/dli.ministry.23837/page/n25/mode/2up?q=self
https://archive.org/details/maneatersofkumao029903mbp/page/n7/mode/2up
Sincerely,
Maverick
WACA #8783 - Checkout my Reloading Tool Survey!
https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-research-surveys/winchester-reloading-tool-survey/
Zebulon said
JWA said
I am a geek and have all my books in an excel spreadsheet with one of the categories being the “continent” for the hunting books.
I only have 3 listed for India –
– Man-Eaters of Kumaon (written in 1944)
– Illustrated Library of Travel, Exploration and Adventure (1872)
– Shooting in Cooch Behar (printed in 1908)
Of those 3, the only one that might fit your timeframe of the Winchester 1910 is the Man-Eaters of Kumaon. Unfortunately, my great spreadsheet doesn’t tell me WHERE in the library it is located and I didn’t see it in the hunting book aisle on the first pass but I do remember it has a green cover…..
Best Regards,
Jeff, (a) if they are in an Excel file, and (b) if you had a column for a Dewey number, and (c) if you sourced enough paper book place markers on which you could harmlessly ink the Dewey number, keeping the paper marker harmlessly held between pages of each book, and (d) you arranged your library in Dewey number order —- well, you could instantly find said book.
You could achieve Ultimate Geekness by converting your Excel file to an Access database with multiple indices and a pull down query interface.
[If you were stuck in the Eighties like me, I’d have suggested Dbase III+.]
I am more of a ’90’s guy and moved to MS Access (which is actually worse than Dbase III). I considered putting them in a database but was too lazy to build one….. 
One of these days I will get each section in alphabetical order by author on the shelf but that will have to wait awhile.
Maverick, good call on looking online!
Best Regards,
WACA Life Member #6284 - Specializing in Pre-64 Winchester .22 Rimfire
Bert H. said
Ballistically, the .401 SL was no slouch.As advertised in the October 1911 Catalog No. 77
Bert
Another example of the case efficiency of smokeless powder, although, that aside, a more fair, if modern, comparison of kinetic energy levels might be 45-70-300 ballistics, MV 1880 ME 2355.
Admittedly the .401SL offered a whole lot of close range striking force back in the day, particularly in an automatic carbine. I’d guess its closest competition before the Great War would likely have been an 1886 carbine or Extra Lightweight rifle in 45-90-300.
The only Winchester centerfire self loader that made any sort of headway in the marketplace was the 1907 but Its real contribution was its trigger and magazine assembly was modified and incorporated virtually intact into the design of the M1 carbine, by Humiston or Roemer.
- Bill
WACA # 65205; life member, NRA; member, TGCA; member, TSRA; amateur preservationist
"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.
Thank you all for replying. Like I wrote, there are 1910s that have Indian retailer and/or engravings of Indian animals on them so they were sold there. And even with the hyperbole of Winchester advertising, I can’t imagine that five 250gr solids traveling at 1875fps or 200gr at 2142fps wouldn’t be effective on thin skinned non-tiger game out to 150 yards?
The database has two that are not retailer marked but have gold Indian elephants and tigers on them. There are also three from retailers. I have one rifle from Walter Locke Calcutta-Delhi-Lahore and 2 rifles from Lyon and Lyon, Calcutta.
WACA No. 9886. Constantly learning about Model 1907 and Model 1910 Self-Loading Rifles.
I assume you read through The Forgotten Winchesters by Henwood, and the follow up by Mr. Speckin who owns the rights to both books now Winchester Model 07 self-Loading .351 Caliber. I spoke to him last year, he’s a great guy.
His book has a whole chapter on hunting with the self loaders, I’d have to dig mine out to see what’s in there, I can’t remember.
Heres a pic I have, unrelated, but I thought you find it interesting.
John Lindly said
Thank you all for replying. Like I wrote, there are 1910s that have Indian retailer and/or engravings of Indian animals on them so they were sold there. And even with the hyperbole of Winchester advertising, I can’t imagine that five 250gr solids traveling at 1875fps or 200gr at 2142fps wouldn’t be effective on thin skinned non-tiger game out to 150 yards?The database has two that are not retailer marked but have gold Indian elephants and tigers on them. There are also three from retailers. I have one rifle from Walter Locke Calcutta-Delhi-Lahore and 2 rifles from Lyon and Lyon, Calcutta.
John, do you have any pictures of the roll stamping on the two Lyon & Lyon Calcutta rifles? I am curious as to the style that was used. I have an 1895 that is a Lyon & Lyon Calcutta rifle. Thank you. Bill
Steven,
Yes, I looked for reference to 401 hunting in both Henwood and Speckin. Henwood had some info but it was vague – “used all over the world” kind of thing. There wasn’t anything in Speckin that I could see. Understandable because he was concentrating on the 351.
Bill,
I am sorry but I do not. I took overall photos of these rifles but nothing of the retailer markings.
WACA No. 9886. Constantly learning about Model 1907 and Model 1910 Self-Loading Rifles.
Bill,
I was able to track one of the rifles down. Here is the roll mark. Added it to the database.
WACA No. 9886. Constantly learning about Model 1907 and Model 1910 Self-Loading Rifles.
This was on another forum I belong too, if you haven’t seen it.
https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=182569
Thank Steven! So many of these old companies have a long history.
I found this page in a reproduction of a Walter Locke catalogue from 1925.
WACA No. 9886. Constantly learning about Model 1907 and Model 1910 Self-Loading Rifles.
Steve,
I gotta admit, that is a great group of rifles, you don’t see many pink slings on vintage Winchesters 😉
Best Regards,
WACA Life Member #6284 - Specializing in Pre-64 Winchester .22 Rimfire
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