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Hi. I recently bought a collection of Winchester rifles and shotguns which included a model 70 super grade carbine (30-06) The aerial # dates to being made in 1946. The serial numbers match on the bolt and barrel. I can’t find any information on a super grade carbine and was wondering if anyone could point me in the right direction so I can educate myself more on this model. I’ve found lots of SGs for sale , but no SG/carbine.
November 5, 2014
Online
Hi polson081-
The pre-64 M70 was never CATALOGED in Super Grade configuration with the 20″ barrel, i.e. SG Carbine. This is not to say that some weren’t made by the factory, they were… But they would have been special order pieces. A 1946 manufacture date is reasonable. The carbine was last cataloged in 1946 but some carbines (not necessarily SG carbines) were made all the way into 1954 (as part of the factory’s “barrel clean-up” effort in the early 1950s). Not cataloged, but advertised in magazines as late as Fall 1954.
A possibly (I’d say probably) legit one (that formerly belonged to a scrupulously honest and critical WACA member) sold via Amoskeag Auction last weekend:
The challenge with such “cross styles”, as Roger Rule termed them in his M70 book, is that establishing authenticity is usually impossible unless by some chance there is an original sales receipt or some kind of family history/provenance available. Sad truth is that these guns have often been faked. Collectors LOVE Super Grades and they LOVE carbines. So what could possibly be better than a SG Carbine??? Maybe a GENUINE SG Carbine??? 
If an unscrupulous person happens to have a genuine carbine (or carbine barrel) and a genuine SG rifle (or SG stock), it may be possible to assemble a SG Carbine that’s impossible to disprove… And these days fake carbine barrels are themselves a problem. No matter what stock they’re in…
So… A totally correct SG Carbine in decent original condition could be a moderately pricey gun, even if it can’t be proved. But… It has to be checked over (and disassembled) by somebody who knows what’s period correct (preferably more than one “somebody)…
Don’t know if this helps or not??? 
Lou
WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters
The below Mod 70 mine for several decades. No heavy investment and especially such as nomenclature, while not a ‘gift horse’ gun per se; conversely, not to view ‘too critically’! 🙂 Omission of “S” on barrel underbelly, as another potentially ‘inconvenient detail’.
Sometimes simple… ‘pretty is as pretty does’; ‘tangible merits’, appreciation best!
As future increasingly morphing into ‘fake world’, “provenances” also fallacious. With computer, easier to fake such document than metal or wood alterations!
Just my take
Best!
John
iskra said
Omission of “S” on barrel underbelly, as another potentially ‘inconvenient detail’.
Don’t believe that mark wasn’t used on pre-war SGs, if I remember correctly Louis’ previous notes on the subject. On later SGs, it would be easy to fake.
November 5, 2014
Online
Hi John-
Thank you for posting the photos. It’s certainly an attractive rifle. Do you, by chance recall the barrel date? I’m going to guess it’s between 1933 and 1935, such that the barrel blank was originally made for a M54 NRA short rifle. The earliest barrel date I’ve seen on M70 carbines is “32” (the year Winchester Proof Steel began replacing Nickel Steel) but on those 32 dated barrels the right side is marked “Patents Applied For”, not “Patented”.
As Clarence said, my understanding is that most M70 SGs made prior to 1955 are NOT marked with either “SUPER” under the barrel or a backwards “S” on the recoil lug. Most made between 1955 and 1959 are so marked. The reason was that prior to 1955 the metal finishes on SG rifles was the same as on standard grade rifles. Pre-war rust blued barrels, post war Du-Lite blued barrels on both. Actions not jeweled on either. That’s part of the “fungible” factor. Even the factory made SG rifles by taking a regular barreled action and putting it together with a different stock, floor plate, and front sight, so “non-factory upgrades” are all too easy. In 1955 the factory went back to rust bluing SG barrels and started jeweling the action components, at which point they began regularly marking the SG components as such. At that point fakery becomes more involved than simple part swapping, but unfortunately there are still many who’ll do it… 
FWIW… I own one alleged SG carbine, SN 74980, in 22 HORNET. Unfortunately I’ve not yet photographed it. Like your gun, we’ve had it for at least 30 years, but before that I have ZERO knowledge of its origins. My Dad bought it back when he was an FFL holder and I do not even know who he got it from. It is a type II-2 action (transition action with late safety) and I’m confident that the 22 HORNET carbine barrel on it is “real”. Oddly, it’s one of two early M70 SG rifles I’ve got that IS marked “SUPER” under the barrel, which is stamped “SUPER 22H 41”. Real??? Or a faker trying too hard??? Can’t say except that the “SUPER” stamp, like the other markings, is appropriately polished over and the barrel blue looks original to me. Who knows??? It is a pretty gun and I’m keeping it… 
Best,
Lou
WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters
Thanks Clarence & Louis! First to answer the question posed. Under-barrel markings on referenced Carbine, no info and to remain unknown for ‘foreseeable…’ As Walter Mitty, living my collection ‘vicariously’ through fairly competent photo files. Such ever subject to Murphy’s Law… Pivotal question-resolving photo; goose-egg! Nowadays, ‘secure lockup’ inimical to convenient ‘hands on’; ever increasingly diverging! Personal side… Golden years pushing 80, mid-career wife & our mid-teen son’… Shades of complex who/when/where/why calendar to rival professional life of old! “Real-deal” hardware, not viewed in couple of years. Small queue of accumulated research ‘to do’s, as awaiting ‘the day…’!
The Carbine acquired early eighties. Almost zero special knowledge of 70 sub-models and then with neither Rule or Womack resources. Wider picture to my own retrospect impression, entire 70 genre just emerging from ‘no man’s land’. Such between ‘discontinued model’ & emerging collector interest. Hunters, yet perhaps sustaining interim-central hardcore focus/value.
For you and I Louis, perhaps you’re suggesting, best recommendation for ‘originality’, our very acquisition era. Then, economics driving ‘counterfeiting’ far less likely. In our 70 Carbines especially, those nice/earlier Winchester era-unique integral front sight ramps; happily, knotty faking obstacles. Also happily nowadays, the horrendous Internet resources with direct reference material as well as expertise here and many forums. Folks as you all, giving of themselves; kindly sharing expertise with appreciative folks as me! 🙂
Big thanks!
Best and Happy Holidays!
John
November 5, 2014
Online
Hi John-
Thanks!!! The reason I was asking (guessing about the barrel date) is in your 6th photo above, where the “7” and the “0” are clearly misaligned, like they were not part of the roll marking die that made the rest of the stamp (with ZERO visible evidence that a pre-existing stamp was altered). Maybe hand stamped with the model number after the fact???
I have seen this before on M70 barrels that pre-date the M70 era. Anybody else seen this on early M70 barrels???
Thanks!!!
Lou
WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters
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