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February 13, 2026
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Hello to all,
I am brand new member and have a small collection of vintage Model 52’s 70’s and 94’s.
Over time, I realized that I was so grateful and enamored with all the information absorbed from the association and membership I should join.
My most recent acquisition and research of a November- 1941 -Model 70 Carbine ( G-7024C) in 30-06 (s/n 43748) clinched it ….so here I am.
So to my first forum question or discussion:
I have read, I believe most of the know information related to the Model 70 Targets Government SOD & USMC & Van Orden aka (Evaluators) Target rifles in doing so, I have gratefully discovered WACA members discussions of pre-war documents and miscellaneous Govt. purchases which included the Model 70 Carbines.
The totals Purchases of the three models G7024C(22G), G7034C(48wjs), G7074C(57W) “appears” to be :
7/2/42 USMC to E. Pugsley (*on hand rifles) ( 62 Carbines)
4/14/42-Quotations & Orders ( 324 Carbines)
8/31/42 WRA order registers (43 Carbines)
I was curious if an further information exists on the subject of Pre-war Govt. purchased Model 70 Carbines such as the serial numbers , uses during the war and if they were surplus/sold at some point after the war.
Thank You
John
December 9, 2002
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John,
Welcome!
Several really knowledgeable members will be coming along soon, and help out with you’re questions, as we have the World’s most informative people on board to answer all you’re questions.
In the meantime, posting pictures is always a good thing on what you have, as it helps all of us in identifying what you have.
Anthony
July 8, 2012
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Welcome John,
You’re definitely in the right place to find the answers you need. As Anthony stated, the subject matter experts will be along to answer your questions.
Al
August 27, 2014
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Monitoring this thread with interest as I have never seen (or I believe heard of) a martially marked M70 Carbine or a M70 Carbine with military provenance
“If you can’t convince them, confuse them”
President Harry S. Truman
February 13, 2026
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Hello all,
To be clear my Carbine is not in any way Martially marked , however it is a matter Winchester and Govt. records they were in fact purchased.
So I would be as excited as you mention Tedk to find out if someone has one U.S. identified or had any information on where and what service those Carbines provided and if the serial numbers are know.
Hoping my late November 1941 was part of the “Winchester stock on hand” when the USMC & S.O.D. purchases were made.
Also I understand or believe I read that the Model 70 Target rifles Purchased and employed as sniper rifles in WW-2 were not all U.S. marked.
Hope this subject is unique and of interest to others,
Thank you , John
November 5, 2014
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Hi John-
Re-iterating this for anyone new to the topic who might care…
The only source of information on military purchased Model 70s during WWII (by catalog symbol) that I’ve found is in the Quotations and Orders ledgers. These do not cover later sales of target rifles for Marksmanship Team use or anything acquired from Evaluators Ltd. The ledgers don’t go past 1945…
Look closely at the clips below… FWIW… G7004C is a 24-inch barrel 30-06 Standard Rifle with 22 GG sight, G7014C is one with Lyman 48WJS sight, and G7084C is one with Lyman 57W sight. Important to note is that when asked, Winchester QUOTED prices on everything they had available in inventory (new production having been frozen), but the ORDER received (if any) is what’s written in red.
First is the quotation for the (373) rifles USMC ordered April 24, 1942. While Winchester QUOTED prices on Carbines, what USMC ORDERED was (260) Standard rifles with 22G and (113) Standard rifles with Lyman 48WJS. No carbines…
The (373) number from the USMC order was confirmed in a letter from Edwin Pugsley to USMC on July 20, 1942. He lists still available inventory, including carbines, but there is no evidence that there were any follow-up USMC orders.
The wild card is a record of an SOD order placed on November 6, 1942 that suggests that the Military ordered an additional (2674) Model 70s. This ledger entry does not include catalog symbol. So if any M70 20-inch barrel Carbines were sold to the US Government in WWII it would have likely been part of this order. You can’t draw much from the prices in the quote (except that prices went up), since rifles and carbines were priced the same.
Unfortunately, there is no follow-up documentation that I’ve yet found either to clarify what was sold or even whether the order was actually filled. If it was, then there would be over (3047) WWII “military” Model 70s. Which would mean they aren’t exactly “rare”…
There’s not much (if any) information I’m aware of regarding how many (if any) of the military M70s were marked. It’s most likely that if stock cartouches were applied, the stamps were done by the arsenals that received the weapons rather than the factory that shipped them. Sure… There’s an alleged “RIA” stamped gun pictured in Rule’s book, but it’s also clear that quite a few guns in that serial number range have been stamped “RIA” by counterfeiters to try and boost the value of an otherwise messed up M70 30-06 Standard rifle.
Keep in mind that the known serial numbers (recorded when the guns were recalled in the 1950s and published in Chandler’s book) of the USMC WWII Model 70s ranged between s/n 41222 and 50784. A range of over (9000) guns, within which (373) were sold to USMC. So it’s not hard to find a 30-06 Standard rifle within the military range. But (WADR to RIA and other creative auctioneers) that doesn’t make it an ex-martial arm.
What makes you think your gun may have been part of a military contract?
Just my take…
Lou
WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters
February 13, 2026
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Mr. Luttrell,
Thank you for responding from the documents posted, I believe if I’m reading that carbine orders correctly they were supplied using the symbol codes which I took form page 66 of the Mr. Rules book
of 30-06 Carbines :
“My carbine is the base model G-7024C. (22G )-
G-7024C to S.O.D. 8/31/42 QTY. 30 -11/6/42 rec’d order Order number W478ORD2723 2299-183-A
G-7024C to Anniston Ordnance 4/29/42 QTY. 200- (with note at once ) Order is a hyphen or continuation of the previous order number.
So I believe the in the ledgers 4-13-42 ” the vertical hyphens are a continuation of the same order which included carbines G-7024C & 7034C (QTY. 39) in the ..USMC 4/13/42 WRA rec’d order NOM 35297 2299-59A 104
You will also see symbol code Carbine G-7034C ( 48wjs) written in pencil on last document WRA received order QTY 27 which supports the vertical hyphens are a continuation of the same orders the number quoted 27 matches the number received.
I have only wishful thinking that my carbine made in mid-November 1941 was set aside and included in one of the the orders received from April to August 1942.
Thank you
john
August 8, 2024
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One thing that I noticed with the CMP. Is that when they auctioned a Pre 1964 Winchester Model 70. They were marked on the left side of the receiver US Property with an electric pencil. Much to my dismay. But, with the CMP paper work. Perhaps, it would be one way to associate a Model 70 with the Military.
December 9, 2002
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Bo Rich said
One thing that I noticed with the CMP. Is that when they auctioned a Pre 1964 Winchester Model 70. They were marked on the left side of the receiver US Property with an electric pencil. Much to my dismay. But, with the CMP paper work. Perhaps, it would be one way to associate a Model 70 with the Military.
Bo,
Those we’re my thoughts exactly, and I chose to hold back to hear, you’re s and a few others opinions, and specifically Louis Luttrell’s, opinion, along with Ted K. as you guy’s live and breathe the M-70 respectfully! IMHO! 
Anthony
February 13, 2026
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I am no expert and my comments should obviously never be considered factually , but I thought I read once that the original WW2 model 70’s rifles initially were not engraved or electro penciled with US Property it was rather during armorer’s refits or some subsequent process auditing process up to and ending with the sale of these firearms that they may have had the U.S. property added.
My interest is mainly did the US government actually procure Carbines for use in WW-2 and what purpose did the serve. I suspect like my S&W Victory they were used by security of Defense plants or some-other support role.
Thanks
John
November 5, 2014
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Hi John-
Like I said, that 11-6-42 order is the “wild card”… Catalog Symbols are not listed on that quote, we can only “guess” (from the quoted price) that the (81) rifles you reference are G7024C and G7034C. It may be true… 
Given that you mentioned the 4-29-42 Anniston quote, I’m presuming either that you’ve been through the ledgers yourself (they are available via the McCracken Library digital archives) or you found a Table I put together a couple years ago and posted on this site. In that table, I added the (parenthetical) catalog symbols to the S.O.D. quotation. It was my “guess” based on the quoted price. The actual ledger entry is what I put above…
For others, here’s the table. Everything I found in the Quotations and Orders ledgers pertaining to M70s:
As for the Anniston quote, there is no subsequent entry in the ledger indicating that an order was received. As I interpret the ledger, the only orders recorded as received were the 4-24-42 USMC order (NOM 35279 2299-59A 1942), the 11-6-42 SOD order that MIGHT include (81) carbines (W478 ORD2723 2299-183A), and a subsequent 2-9-43 SOD order for (50) G7004C.
I have not followed up on this by trying to track down the Government Contract numbers on the National Archives side. If they could be located they might clarify what the guns were. If anyone is facile with finding WWII Government Contracts, PLEASE let me know… The truth (may) be out there!!!
Bob and Anthony-
The only M70s I’ve seen that are electropenciled “US PROPERTY” are the 1950s G7044C (30-06 Target Rifle) ordered for Marksmanship Team use. Those are the ones CMP has been selling off…
I do not know whether (or how) the WWII Standard Grade Rifles and (???) Carbines were marked. Some MAY have gotten a “RIA” Aresenal cartouche stamped in the wood. Some other rifles (possibly genuine???) have turned up with very realistic “Frankford Arsenal” and “H.B.J.” stamps on them. IIRC there was one G7004C posted on this site a while back that was on the serial number list in Chandler’s book and it was NOT Government marked. Of course, there’s no reason to presume that rifle was necessarily still wearing its original stock!!!
Interesting topic!!!
Lou
WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters
August 14, 2021
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More importantly, what did the Arsenal need 257 Roberts barrels for, did some general need his hunting rifle upgraded at government expense? LOL
5-23-42
Watertown Arsenal
257 Win Roberts Bbls
2
一
$16.83
November 5, 2014
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Steven-
The one I like BEST was the quote issued to the Rubber Development Corporation for (5) 375 H&H Magnum Super Grades (G7057C)!!! What was that about??? Maybe some bigwig Government Contractors were planning a little trip to India to scout out potential sources of natural rubber and decided to take in a little Bengal Tiger hunting???
I didn’t see record that an order was received, only a quotation. Maybe their plan got “DOGE’d”???
Lou
WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters
August 27, 2014
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Somewhere in the deep, dark, dusty recesses of my memory recall that several 375 H&H Super Grades were thought to have been ordered for Generals
“If you can’t convince them, confuse them”
President Harry S. Truman
August 27, 2014
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Louis Luttrell said
Steven-
The one I like BEST was the quote issued to the Rubber Development Corporation for (5) 375 H&H Magnum Super Grades (G7057C)!!! What was that about??? Maybe some bigwig Government Contractors were planning a little trip to India to scout out potential sources of natural rubber and decided to take in a little Bengal Tiger hunting???
I didn’t see record that an order was received, only a quotation. Maybe their plan got “DOGE’d”???
Lou
Same wave length Lou?
“If you can’t convince them, confuse them”
President Harry S. Truman
November 5, 2014
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Ted-
I take back what I said about the Rubber Development Company quote… 
I can’t read my own doggone table!!!
Those (5) Super Grades WERE ordered on 10-2-44. The fact that they didn’t write down a Government contract number and that the quote as at “price in effect” (which I think probably meant current retail), suggests that they were Government contractors (or some such) rather the Pentagon Generals. Unless, of course, the Generals were paying out of pocket??? 
But maybe they DID go on their Tiger hunt after all!!!
Lou
WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters
August 27, 2014
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Louis Luttrell said
Ted-
I take back what I said about the Rubber Development Company quote… I can’t read my own doggone table!!!
Those (5) Super Grades WERE ordered on 10-2-44. The fact that they didn’t write down a Government contract number and that the quote as at “price in effect” (which I think probably meant current retail), suggests that they were Government contractors (or some such) rather the Pentagon Generals. Unless, of course, the Generals were paying out of pocket???
But maybe they DID go on their Tiger hunt after all!!!
Lou
Rubber Development Company is the entity associated with the M70’s with the stainless 270 barrels?
“If you can’t convince them, confuse them”
President Harry S. Truman
November 5, 2014
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Hi Ted-
Is it ??? If you have any information at all PLEASE let me know!!!
What Ted’s referring to is that during the 1950s, a fair number of Model 70s in 270 WIN were made with special order stainless barrels. The only special order stainless barrels that show up in the survey in any kind of numbers are in 270 WIN, 300 (H&H) Magnum, and 30-05 Target Rifles… Others were undoubtedly made but I suspect they would have been one-offs…
As for the stainless barrel 270 WIN rifles, they tend to fall into serial number “clusters” that suggest they were made in batches. Possibly the result of orders placed for a group of similar rifles (or a factory whim???). The first batch is between S/Ns 240xxx and 245XXX (4 examples so far). The next batch is in the 328xxx to 366xxx range (11 examples so far). There are also a couple in the 421xxx to 422xxx range. Pretty much nothing else in the intervening gaps…
Anyway… There’s a “story” that at one point an oil exploration company working in South America ordered stainless barrel 270 WIN Model 70s from the factory. Maybe they were afraid of Jaguars??? I am not aware that there is any truth to this story, any more than I am aware there’s any truth to the notion that batches of Model 70s in 7.65 M/M Argentine Mauser were manufactured and exported to South America in the 1930s. If ANYONE has any documentation related to either of these (or other) Model 70 “Urban Legends”, PLEASE get in touch.
In any event, Ted, I doubt that the stainless 270 WIN Model 70s had anything to do with the “Rubber Development Company” of the 1940s. As far as I know South America was not a big producer of natural rubber, and synthetic rubber had been invented by the time the stainless 270s were made in the 1950s. Oil exploration, OTOH, is at least plausible… Think Venezuela…
If anyone cares, here’s a Standard Grade Model 70 with factory stainless barrel…
Best,
Lou
WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters
August 8, 2024
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Louis, I thought that the Tiger gun was a Model 99 Savage in .22 Hi-Power. At least that was what the add back then read.🤪
April 15, 2005
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Louis Luttrell said
Hi Ted-
Is it ??? If you have any information at all PLEASE let me know!!!
What Ted’s referring to is that during the 1950s, a fair number of Model 70s in 270 WIN were made with special order stainless barrels. The only special order stainless barrels that show up in the survey in any kind of numbers are in 270 WIN, 300 (H&H) Magnum, and 30-05 Target Rifles… Others were undoubtedly made but I suspect they would have been one-offs…
As for the stainless barrel 270 WIN rifles, they tend to fall into serial number “clusters” that suggest they were made in batches. Possibly the result of orders placed for a group of similar rifles (or a factory whim???). The first batch is between S/Ns 240xxx and 245XXX (4 examples so far). The next batch is in the 328xxx to 366xxx range (11 examples so far). There are also a couple in the 421xxx to 422xxx range. Pretty much nothing else in the intervening gaps…
Anyway… There’s a “story” that at one point an oil exploration company working in South America ordered stainless barrel 270 WIN Model 70s from the factory. Maybe they were afraid of Jaguars??? I am not aware that there is any truth to this story, any more than I am aware there’s any truth to the notion that batches of Model 70s in 7.65 M/M Argentine Mauser were manufactured and exported to South America in the 1930s. If ANYONE has any documentation related to either of these (or other) Model 70 “Urban Legends”, PLEASE get in touch.
In any event, Ted, I doubt that the stainless 270 WIN Model 70s had anything to do with the “Rubber Development Company” of the 1940s. As far as I know South America was not a big producer of natural rubber, and synthetic rubber had been invented by the time the stainless 270s were made in the 1950s. Oil exploration, OTOH, is at least plausible… Think Venezuela…
If anyone cares, here’s a Standard Grade Model 70 with factory stainless barrel…Best,
Lou
Why are the Model 70 Stainless Steel barrels marked “Proof Steel”… they most certainly are not the same thing!
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
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