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Model 70 .220 Swift pre-war carbine
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March 12, 2023 - 3:51 pm
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March 12, 2023 - 5:45 pm
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And on the topic of carbine, they have this one.  I do load for .35 Remington…

https://auctions.morphyauctions.com/_C__RARE_WINCHESTER_MODEL_70_BOLT_ACTION_CARBINE_I-LOT554960.aspx

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March 12, 2023 - 9:40 pm
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Hi Steve-

I have no record of S/N 28289 in any of the survey data available to me (but they currently only cover about 3% of pre64 M70 production).  I have records of (4) alleged 220 SWIFT Standard Carbines, all falling in the 19000-33000 range, but there is no guarantee any of them are legit either…

Other than the fact that I don’t particularly like the “22S” in the under chamber stamp (made with separate number/letter dies), I think the Morphy gun is a legit 220 SWIFT Standard Rifle.  The issue is whether it’s a legit 220 SWIFT CARBINE… WinkThe risk with such a gun is that all it takes to “make one” is the ability to shorten a 26″ barrel to 20″ and re-establish an integral front sight ramp that looks like it belongs there.  So I’m leery of these…

If you were to look at this one, pay VERY close attention to everything to do with the front sight ramp; distance from muzzle, height, stippling, and especially the fillets between barrel and ramp.  Make sure that the muzzle face is not blued and look very closely for a bridge “repair” whereby non-factory D&T holes were concealed by a roll marked insert silver soldered into the top of the bridge.  IMHO the barrel itself is a legit CMS 220 SWIFT barrel (the early pre-wars almost all had CMS barrels, not the matte finish stainless).  But the photos are not there to see whether there’s evidence of it being shortened.

As for the 35 REM Carbine, S/N 192094… I don’t see anything that screams “fake” to me except that maybe the proofs are a little wonky.  The 1951 serial number paired with a ’41 barrel date is not itself an issue, most of the 35 REM barrels I have dates on are dated either ’41 or ’46, and the 35 REM Carbine was available as late as mid-1954 when Hudson’s Sporting Goods was advertising the last of the “barrel clean-up” oddities.  No record of S/N 192094 the surveys either, but there was an alleged one at S/N 197712, as well as a fairly good sized group of 1954 guns in the 301XXX to 311XXX range.  So it’s possible…

As with all 35 REM M70s (regardless of style), it’s imperative to check that the magazine box, extractor collar/bolt stop extension, and ejector are correct as these parts were only shared with the 250-3000 SAV chambering which is also rather rare.  The extractor should have a slightly longer “lip” and be stamped with an “R” underneath but you have to pop the extractor off the bolt to see that (no tools required if you have strong thumbs… Laugh).  Lastly, the bolt face recess should be about 0.475″ diameter, in contrast to the 0.485″ diameter of standard cartridges.  It takes a dial caliper (not the naked eye) to measure this, but since adding metal to the bolt face is a whole lot more work than removing it, most fakers do not bother and it can be a tip-off to a rebarreled (or fake) gun… 

In the World of M70s it’s Caveat Emptor as Always!!! WinkConfusedLaugh

Best,

Lou

WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters

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March 12, 2023 - 10:16 pm
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Thanks for taking the time to address these two carbines.  Your input and comments were VERY educational!  It sure would be nice if the records on these rifles had been saved.  

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March 12, 2023 - 10:25 pm
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Hi Steve-

Either, or both, of those guns MIGHT be “real”…  I just can’t form an opinion without seeing them (and even then I still might be wrong)…  If I were interested in either I’d go look at them, as Denver PA (Morphy) isn’t that far from where I live nowadays… 

Just don’t ask about the 358 WIN Super Grade CARBINE (not FWT) in that auction!!!  That’s strictly “PM” stuff!!! LaughWinkLaugh

Lou

WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters

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March 12, 2023 - 11:16 pm
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Lou – 

 

Too many, “maybes” for me to risk getting into rare chamberings and rare variations of Model 70’s.  By the way, a .358 Super Grade Carbine does sound sweet.  I just couldn’t stand not knowing for sure if any of these were, “right.”

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March 12, 2023 - 11:59 pm
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steve004 said I just couldn’t stand not knowing for sure if any of these were, “right.”
  

You’re in the minority; for the majority, whatever Morphy or Rock Island, or any of the big-names in the auction racket allege is the very definition of “right.”  If a gun sells for Big Dough, it’s got to be right.  Right?

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March 13, 2023 - 10:38 am
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clarence said

steve004 said I just couldn’t stand not knowing for sure if any of these were, “right.”

  

You’re in the minority; for the majority, whatever Morphy or Rock Island, or any of the big-names in the auction racket allege is the very definition of “right.”  If a gun sells for Big Dough, it’s got to be right.  Right?

  

Correct!!

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March 13, 2023 - 12:59 pm
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clarence said

steve004 said I just couldn’t stand not knowing for sure if any of these were, “right.”

  

You’re in the minority; for the majority, whatever Morphy or Rock Island, or any of the big-names in the auction racket allege is the very definition of “right.”  If a gun sells for Big Dough, it’s got to be right.  Right?

  

It’s sad that for a growing number of collectors (i.e. “buyers”), a stellar description and high sale price from a big auction house is adequate provenance for a rifle to continue to command a high sales price as it is sold down the line.  That doesn’t work with knowledgeable collectors who do their homework, but to sell a rifle, only one buyer is needed.  Or, in the case of an auction, one buyer and a couple of shills.  

Added thought:  Knowledgeable and experienced dealers routinely attend auctions.  I suspect that many times they are pursing guns they know aren’t right.  But, it doesn’t matter to them as they know they will find a buyer.  Probably one of us won’t be that buyer.  We do not represent the majority of people collecting (i.e. buying) guns out there.

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