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Model 1892 Production Discrepancy
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Steven K
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August 14, 2015 - 12:38 am
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Hi,

Based on the serial number of my Model 1892 rifle (145XXX), the production year should be 1897.  The Winchester factory letter I received, however, states that the serial number was applied on 2 July 1900 and the rifle was shipped on 20 August 1900 (order number 68083).  The only special order feature was an octagonal barrel (caliber .25-20).

Can anyone explain the discrepancy between the serial number falling in the 1897 production range and the actual SN application date of 1900?

Thank you & very best regards,

Steve K

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August 14, 2015 - 2:59 am
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Hello Steven,

The reference source that you used to come up with the production year as 1897 is not accurate. The true (accurate) production date is precisely as shown on the factory letter from the CFM.

Bert (WACA Historian)

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August 14, 2015 - 4:04 am
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Bert,

This issue may never be resolved. The ATF uses  Madis info. I use the Madis info. As Leroy  stated, maybe “you should get off high your horse.”

Walter Blake

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August 14, 2015 - 5:35 am
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wallyb said

Bert,

This issue may never be resolved. The ATF uses  Madis info. I use the Madis info. As Leroy  stated, maybe “you should get off high your horse.”

Walter Blake

Walter,

This issue is resolved, and you are incorrect in regards to the BATF… they most assuredly do not use the Madis published information.  In all cases, they contact the CFM and obtain the verified dates.  In a court of law, factual information is absolutely requisite.

In regards to your comment about “you should get off high your horse” sic, you are not reading me correctly.  Until you have met and talked with me in person, you should not make any assumptions about my character or motivation.

Please understand this… I will continue to inform anyone and everyone who asks this same oft repeated question, that there is only one source of accurate DOM information… the original Winchester factory records in possession of the Cody Firearms Museum.  Additionally, I personally will not allow anyone on this forum to espouse the Madis serial number vs. DOM information as being the legal antique serial numbers.  To do so, is essentially saying that the WACA is endorsing illegal activity in regards to the sale and shipping of firearms that are legally “modern” firearms.  People who ask legitimate questions of this nature deservedly expect to get an accurate answer, and that is what I strive to do in all cases.  You (and a few other WACA members) undoubtedly do not agree with what is and is not a legal antique Winchester, but until the federal statute is changed, that is what we will all abide by.

Bert

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August 14, 2015 - 1:08 pm
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I don’t think Bert is on a high horse on this, Walter. The Madis dates are incorrect, plain and simple. I had an 1894 in .32WS that the Madis dates showed as being produced in 1900, two years before the .32WS was even introduced by Winchester.

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Steven K
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August 14, 2015 - 2:22 pm
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Thank you very much for the information.  Very helpful; I had no idea that there were issues with the serial number ranges vs. years of production published in reference books and online.  I don’t have a dog in this fight, but the factory records – as a primary source – do seem to be the better reference.  I’m a Civil War collector, but this Winchester 92 belonged to my great grandfather so I’m trying to find out more about it.

Thanks again & very best regards,

Steven K

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August 14, 2015 - 4:38 pm
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Steven K said

Thank you very much for the information.  Very helpful; I had no idea that there were issues with the serial number ranges vs. years of production published in reference books and online.  I don’t have a dog in this fight, but the factory records – as a primary source – do seem to be the better reference.  I’m a Civil War collector, but this Winchester 92 belonged to my great grandfather so I’m trying to find out more about it.

Thanks again & very best regards,

Steven K

Steven,

You are quite welcome, and I am pleased that we were able to help you learn more about your old family Winchester Model 1892.

Bert

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August 14, 2015 - 4:51 pm
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Steven K said

Hi,

Based on the serial number of my Model 1892 rifle (145XXX), the production year should be 1897.  The Winchester factory letter I received, however, states that the serial number was applied on 2 July 1900 and the rifle was shipped on 20 August 1900 (order number 68083).  The only special order feature was an octagonal barrel (caliber .25-20).

Can anyone explain the discrepancy between the serial number falling in the 1897 production range and the actual SN application date of 1900?

Thank you & very best regards,

Steve K

Hello Steve,

If you will give me the full serial number I will add the rifle into my survey I am working on and I should be able to tell you more about the gun.  Yes the commonly shown “data” on almost all the websites around is not correct or accurate.  The serialization records and production ledgers kept by Winchester at the time of production clearly show this fact. 

http://forums.gunbroker.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=606355

Michael

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August 14, 2015 - 9:34 pm
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Steven K, the various online sources and reference books that give incorrect dates for your Winchester are an example of many writers taking their information from the same source which, in this case, turned out to be inaccurate for reasons we can only speculate. As a result, it is a bit of an uphill battle to get the true and accurate data out there. When there is a conflict in dates, the Factory records hold trump. These records are the originals, not copies. They were actually there when those rifles were received in the Winchester warehouse. How errors get spread is an interesting study in and of itself. I wrote a blog post on how errors can be spread in the field of science (off topic, but there are parallels with this topic here). Many people find it difficult to believe that so many peer-reviewed papers could multiply an error but it happens, and it has also happened with the Winchester dates as well. Fortunately, we still have some of the original records at the Cody museum.

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Steven K
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August 20, 2015 - 8:51 pm
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Hi Michael,

The complete serial number is 145316. 

Win 38-55,

I’ve seen similar errors of fact repeated in subsequent CW firearms references due to the very reason you state – even when primary documentary evidence is available to refute the claims.  I wrote a monograph, The Confederate Enfield, to introduce/provide many of the key primary documents to collectors and to correct the record on many markings found on Confederate purchased Enfield arms.  I look forward to reading your blog.

Thanks again & very best regards,

Steve

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August 21, 2015 - 8:34 pm
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Steven K said

Hi Michael,

The complete serial number is 145316. 

Win 38-55,

I’ve seen similar errors of fact repeated in subsequent CW firearms references due to the very reason you state – even when primary documentary evidence is available to refute the claims.  I wrote a monograph, The Confederate Enfield, to introduce/provide many of the key primary documents to collectors and to correct the record on many markings found on Confederate purchased Enfield arms.  I look forward to reading your blog.

Thanks again & very best regards,

Steve

Thanks Steven.  You mentioned in your original question that the octagon barrel was a special order feature.  In fact this was a standard sporting rifle configuration.   Can you use the reference material in this link to tell me which style of barrel address is on your rifle?  Or you can send me a series of photos to the email contained therein. 

http://forums.gunbroker.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=606355

Thanks,

Michael 

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stevek522
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August 21, 2015 - 11:00 pm
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Hi Michael,

I sent the gun to Turnbull to have some work done on it, so I don’t have it here to examine currently.  I believe the address type is 1D; I compared it once to the styles listed in Pirkle’s guide (vol 2) and remember that it matched his Type 1 on p. 163.

Thanks for the info on the octagon barrel.

Very best regards,

Steve

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