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Good morning,
I was cataloging the current listings from Ward’s Auction and came across this Model 1892 with a 20 inch octagon barrel. It looks like a correct short fore end wood and the rear sight is located closer to the receiver face. The problem arrises from the fact that this rifle was listed on Gunbroker.com back in 2013 out of Houlton, ME as a 38 WCF round barrel sporting rifle with a Nickel Steel barrel. THAT is much more uncommon than a 20 inch gun by miles!!
The original pics from GB
And the pics from the Ward’s listing:
Make a note someplace to look out for this again some place else.
Michael
Model 1892 / Model 61 Collector, Research, Valuation
Michael – I think many of us are grateful you watch out for this stuff. I know I am. Given how well Austin’s .44-40 short rifle did on the gunbroker auction recently, I suspect this one is being eyed with great interest by many.
On the rarity factor of the rifle’s original configuration, I was not tuned into the rarity factor of nickel steel markings on a .38-40 round barrel rifle. I just checked a .38-40 I have with 24 inch round barrel and full magazine. The serial number is just short of one million, yet no nickel steel marking. What serial number range do these markings fall in? Also, more common to find these markings among the other chamberings?
steve004 said
Michael – I think many of us are grateful you watch out for this stuff. I know I am. Given how well Austin’s .44-40 short rifle did on the gunbroker auction recently, I suspect this one is being eyed with great interest by many.On the rarity factor of the rifle’s original configuration, I was not tuned into the rarity factor of nickel steel markings on a .38-40 round barrel rifle. I just checked a .38-40 I have with 24 inch round barrel and full magazine. The serial number is just short of one million, yet no nickel steel marking. What serial number range do these markings fall in? Also, more common to find these markings among the other chamberings?
Steve,
Nickel steel barrel in any configuration or caliber are extremely uncommon for Model 1892 rifles. And thanks for the kind words.
Michael
Model 1892 / Model 61 Collector, Research, Valuation
Think Wards would pass along to the consigner a generous offer to buy the original barrel removed from this gun? Their response would be interesting–except that you’d never get one.
clarence said
Think Wards would pass along to the consigner a generous offer to buy the original barrel removed from this gun? Their response would be interesting–except that you’d never get one.
I had been wondering what they did with the original barrel….
Let me add, it looks like the barrel and magazine tube they added have condition issues. Unsightly would be my term.
The wards pictures look very deceiving compared to the Gunbroker versions.
THIS ALL STARTED WITH JUST ONE GUN!
Not to disagree with any of you. If you are ever interested about a gun on Ward’s sight the catalog they sell may have more pictures? Also a phone call may answer some of your questions? I buy ammo and other stuff and have had good luck.
Chuck said
Also a phone call may answer some of your questions?
Like, “who switched the barrel?” Just kidding–no reason to believe they know the gun’s past history. By the way, is this a ser. no. for which there’s no record at Cody?
clarence said
Like, “who switched the barrel?” Just kidding–no reason to believe they know the gun’s past history. By the way, is this a ser. no. for which there’s no record at Cody?
Serial number only for this gun, no other records. I doubt that Wards knows or maybe even cares like most dealers. They take the word of the consignor and don’t research each gun. Buyer beware everywhere. Do your homework and don’t buy guns sight unseen. Say thanks to Michael.
Chuck said Serial number only for this gun, no other records.
What I figured–the fakers are smart enough to pick guns that can’t be documented.
To All,
The chance that Ward’s has anything to do with the alteration of this rifle is a long shot in my opinion. It has been 7 long years since the rifle was last seen on Ginbroker.com. IT may have had more than one or two homes since then.
With regard to the either Ward’s or ANY auction house doing any sort of research on individual lots consigned to them that is NEVER going to happen. Especially for a run of the mill example like this. Imagine the amount of staff and the effort it would take to find anything beyond who the last owner was of the gun.
The only way there can be a “data base” for something like this is for individuals to commit one heck of a lot of time to create it. I spend 2 to 4 hours every single day (just about) looking at auctions, for sale sites, answering emails and working on this stuff. And I have been at this for just over 7 years!! You want a source? Pick a model and start compiling data. In about 5 years you will begin to have something that might catch the altered guns. I will be more than happy to assist and share my experiences on how to do it with just about anyone who wants to start a project.
Michael
Model 1892 / Model 61 Collector, Research, Valuation
I appreciate the dedication to your research. I learned a few years ago that the folks on this forum will give you honest feedback (even if it hurts your feelings) and I think that’s invaluable. On more than one occasion, I haven’t bought a firearm based on what another member saw that I hadn’t.
Technically, the glass is always full; half liquid, half air....
WACA #10293
It’s nice that Ward’s finally discloses complete serial numbers in their auctions. Until fairly recently they only posted partial serial numbers. Definitely helps the survey takers and gives potential bidders the courtesy of a background check on a particular gun (if records exist). Always thought it was stupid when sellers “X-out” digits of serial numbers in their ads like their protecting their social security number or something.
Don
twobit said
To All,The chance that Ward’s has anything to do with the alteration of this rifle is a long shot in my opinion. It has been 7 long years since the rifle was last seen on Ginbroker.com. IT may have had more than one or two homes since then.
With regard to the either Ward’s or ANY auction house doing any sort of research on individual lots consigned to them that is NEVER going to happen. Especially for a run of the mill example like this. Imagine the amount of staff and the effort it would take to find anything beyond who the last owner was of the gun.
The only way there can be a “data base” for something like this is for individuals to commit one heck of a lot of time to create it. I spend 2 to 4 hours every single day (just about) looking at auctions, for sale sites, answering emails and working on this stuff. And I have been at this for just over 7 years!! You want a source? Pick a model and start compiling data. In about 5 years you will begin to have something that might catch the altered guns. I will be more than happy to assist and share my experiences on how to do it with just about anyone who wants to start a project.
Michael
Good work twobit
I checked Wards and they updated the descriptions with the info you gave so the bidders were aware and they still overpaid.
We can only try. And we must assume that the winning bidder actually read the description AFTER the new info was added and recognized that the gun was not in its original “as built” configuration.
Michaelk
Model 1892 / Model 61 Collector, Research, Valuation
Thank you Michael for the continued up dates.
I am also pleased to know that the “Nickel Steel” barrels are recognized as being “uncommon” and thus more collectible. In 40 years I have managed two. Serial #400784 a 22″ Round barrel take down (has shorter forend). Serial #623492 24″ octagon with double set triggers. Unfortunately to late to letter.
Roger
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