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steve004 said
I see Merz has two for sale:Interesting how on this first one, he does discuss the caliber confusion:
https://www.merzantiques.com/product/7217-winchester-low-wall-rifle-in-rare-25-20-single-shot/
Steve,
He discusses it on the first rifle because it is marked “25 W.C.F.”, whereas the second (later production) rifle is clearly marked “25-20 S.S.”… not much room for any confusion on that rifle. I can also understand his pricing difference. The first rifle is Antique & has an octagon barrel. The second rifle is a “modern” rifle & has a round barrel.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
clarence said
I did not see that, so the seller was better informed than I would have suspected. 1893 OR 1895 is given by Barnes as the introduction date of the repeater cartridge.
Based on the Model 1892 records, the 25-20 WCF repeater cartridge was introduced in 1895. Further, that is when Winchester first began marking the Single Shot rifles with “25-20 S.S.” on the barrel, and recording it in the ledger records as such. The entry in the warehouse ledgers was usually changed to “25/20 SS”, and it was differentiated from the 25-20 W.C.F. by entering “25/20 R”, or “25/20 W”, or “25-20 WCF” in the ledger records for the repeater cartridge. In all cases, it was marked “25-20 W.C.F.” on the barrels.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
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Bert H. said
rogertherelic said
Seems like they may have made calibers in batches. RDB
In my research of the Single Shot records, there were very few “batches” based solely on the caliber. Typically, when a group (batch) of similar or identical rifles were made, it was based on a specific Order received for them. For instance, the largest single batch of identical caliber Single Shot rifles I found in the warehouse ledger records were (100) identical rifles made in 40-70 Sharps Straight, 30″ No. 4 octagon barrels, all shipped to E.C. Meachum in St Louis, MO on order number 4183.
Throughout the Single Shot records, there are numerous batches of (10), (20), (30), (40), and even a few for (50) rifles all in the same caliber and with the same order number. I have identified several Australian orders that fit into this category.
Conversely, when reviewing the Model 1894/94 production records, there were indeed many large batches that were manufactured specifically by the caliber, but were shipped to many different order numbers. I suspect the production foreman would specify that he wanted several hundred 30 WCF, or 32 WS rifles or carbines made up for warehouse stock. In my survey of the Model 1894, I have discovered large batches (at least 900 consecutive Take Down rifles), indicating that batches were also made in specific configurations as well as calibers.
Bert
Bert it is interesting that you have identified several Australian orders that fir into this category.
How can one obtain that information from the CMF Records. I have a low wall that was purchased directly from the sydney retailer, but that info is not recorded on the letter
Tony. R said
Bert it is interesting that you have identified several Australian orders that fir into this category.
How can one obtain that information from the CMF Records. I have a low wall that was purchased directly from the sydney retailer, but that info is not recorded on the letter
Tony,
I was only able to identify those Australian orders by finding individual Single Shots in your country, and then scouring the records looking for additional rifles (or Carbines) that shipped on the same order number. The easiest batches to identify were those that were ordered by the Perry Brothers Ltd “The Stinger”, F. Lassetter & Co. “The Daisy”, or James Rosier. I (with the assistance of Neil Waters) also identified a substantial number of rifles ordered by the Hahndorf Rifle club. One of my future projects is to put together a short article about the Australian Single Shot connection.
Thus far, I have identified (999) Single Shots ordered by the Perry Brothers Ltd, and (811) by F. Lassetter & Co. and I most certainly have not found them all yet.
Send me the S/N on your low-wall so that I can check it in my research records.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Bert H. said
Tony. R said
Bert it is interesting that you have identified several Australian orders that fir into this category.
How can one obtain that information from the CMF Records. I have a low wall that was purchased directly from the sydney retailer, but that info is not recorded on the letter
Tony,
I was only able to identify those Australian orders by finding individual Single Shots in your country, and then scouring the records looking for additional rifles (or Carbines) that shipped on the same order number. The easiest batches to identify were those that were ordered by the Perry Brothers Ltd “The Stinger”, F. Lassetter & Co. “The Daisy”, or James Rosier. I (with the assistance of Neil Waters) also identified a substantial number of rifles ordered by the Hahndorf Rifle club. One of my future projects is to put together a short article about the Australian Single Shot connection.
Thus far, I have identified (999) Single Shots ordered by the Perry Brothers Ltd, and (811) by F. Lassetter & Co. and I most certainly have not found them all yet.
Send me the S/N on your low-wall so that I can check it in my research records.
Bert
Bert i sent you the number which you have. wow that a lot of single shots ordered in, especially since the population around that time in australia was proberly less then 3 mill. interesting we got most of the babys and most of the half mag lever guns.
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