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December 27, 2024
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Here a while back Lou gave a school’n on how easy it is to fake a Super Grade – I am looking for that, not to fake one, but things to look out for. Can anyone point me in the right direction to find that?
Dan #67288
April 30, 2023
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Well if you find the schooling materials let me know …maybe an offline share?
November 7, 2015
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I remember Lou’s post, it reinforced my resolve to pursue other Winchester models even though I’ll always be interested in the Model 70. I may be able to talk myself into a standard grade someday if the price and situation coincide with available funds but the illicit upgrade seemed to be a relatively simple operation and if done correctly would take a very practiced eye to detect, if at all.
Mike
November 5, 2014
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Hey Guys-
I post too much as it is… Usually while drunk and pissed off (at things in general)… I express many opinions, some of which I’ll stand by in the morning… 
This might be the thread you’re referencing? Let me know if this is the one you’re thinking of. If not, I’ll look again…
https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-rifles/late-pre-64-70-super-grade-featherweight/
The thing is that prior to 1955, all you need to “make” a Super Grade is a stock, floor plate, and front sight. There ARE subtle period changes that you should (I would) expect to see and that help narrow down the DOM of the SG specific parts, but that really is a “school lesson”… For example, a floor plate that’s “correct” on a 1942 Super Grade should not be on a 1937 Super Grade. There’s more to it than the presence/absence of a “Helvetica ‘G'” (Both should have that “G”). There are other differences…
Hope this helps…
Lou
WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters
August 8, 2024
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One rule to remember. Most if not all Super Grade Carbines at on time were Pre War Super Grade .30Gov’t06 rifles.😁
November 5, 2014
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All too painfully true!!! They were never regularly cataloged and are just as easy for a faker to put together from parts as it would have been for the factory to do… Approach them with caution!!! Given the number of talented “craftsmen” out there, many are regular Super Grades with cut-down 20-inch barrels and “restored” ramps. That way the roll marks are perfect and the proofs match!!!
I will attach an unedited screenshot of a section from a book chapter, because it saves typing everything over. This is an “Intro to Styles” chapter, so it’s a just quick overview…
Bob- Please give this a quick read and let me know if you disagree. My “treatise” won’t be sent out for expert review/correction until there’s more of it written, so all I’ve got now are my unchecked “opinions”…
Lou
WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters
January 20, 2023
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Lou, Your modesty is misplaced, if becoming. I’ve said it before but it bears repeating.
“In the Land of the Blind, the one-eyed man is King!”
- Bill
WACA # 65205; life member, NRA; member, TGCA; member, TSRA; amateur preservationist
"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.
August 27, 2014
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Have one SG Carbine, was fully aware that the configuration was never catalogued when I bought the gun, but I really like it and it’s one of my favorites.
“If you can’t convince them, confuse them”
President Harry S. Truman
August 27, 2014
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Fwiw, have held a 250-3000 SAV. SG Carbine with a Griffin & Howe stamp on the barrel
“If you can’t convince them, confuse them”
President Harry S. Truman
January 20, 2023
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Tedk said
Have one SG Carbine, was fully aware that the configuration was never catalogued when I bought the gun, but I really like it and it’s one of my favorites.
Proof that the factory did not always recognize an opportunity.That is not the only time WRA misjudged its customers’ preferences. Witness the “new and improved” 1964 product line.
My only experience with a shorter than traditional barreled Winchester was a Prewar Model 64 30 WCF with 20″ barrel and pickle fork skinny forearm. Not enough weight forward to hold offhand.
But I could relish a Model 70 carbine in 250/3000 or 300 Savage. I would think the barrel contour, even dubbed off 4 inches, would still be shootable without a rest. And I killed my Whitetails with an 18.5″ 250 Savage for twenty years.
- Bill
WACA # 65205; life member, NRA; member, TGCA; member, TSRA; amateur preservationist
"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.
August 8, 2024
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Louis, The write up on the Super Grade Carbine is approriate. My concern is that most of the Model 70 Carbines that I have seen over the years were chambered in .30Gov’t06. I can’t recall seeing a Super Grade Carbine chambered in .30Gov’t06! If Winchester made a Super Grade Carbine. Well, certainitly they would of made more in .30Gov’t06 then any other caliber. If I ever run accross one, and everything matched. I would feel better about it being original. But, to alot of Model 70 Collectors there will always be perhaps some question on the originality of a Super Grade Carbine.
December 27, 2024
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That is a good link too, Lou, thank you. The one I was more specifically looking for was one where you said something to the effect that you were going to tell the tricks of the faking trade, not to tell people how to do it or what to do, because the fakers already know the tricks.
Dan #67288
November 5, 2014
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Dan-
I CLEARLY post too much!!! 
I will go through all my posts over the past year and see if I can locate the one you’re thinking of…
In the meantime, since you’re a Member, I suggest you read this article in the Winter 2001 WACA Collector by Dr. Vic Van Ballenberghe. It’s entitled “How to Buy a Fake Model 70 Winchester” and it’s the best article I’ve yet seen dealing with the Model 70 fake trade…
https://winchestercollector.org/magazines/200101/26/
BTW… If you can name at least some of the anonymous fakers Vic mentioned in the article, then you’ve been around this game too long!!! 
Lou
WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters
November 7, 2015
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Louis Luttrell said
Dan-
I CLEARLY post too much!!! I will go through all my posts over the past year and see if I can locate the one you’re thinking of…
In the meantime, since you’re a Member, I suggest you read this article in the Winter 2001 WACA Collector by Dr. Vic Van Ballenberghe. It’s entitled “How to Buy a Fake Model 70 Winchester” and it’s the best article I’ve yet seen dealing with the Model 70 fake trade…
https://winchestercollector.org/magazines/200101/26/
BTW… If you can name at least some of the anonymous fakers Vic mentioned in the article, then you’ve been around this game too long!!!
Lou
Lou-
As the late John Kopec once noted the fakers read what is written about their work and have been known to make changes after inconsistencies were pointed out. I don’t think the fakers were able to improve their product as a result of your excellent posts but it’s something to consider.
At the moment we have 181 guests on this forum.
Mike
November 5, 2014
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Mike-
This is an oft pondered question… 
There’s little doubt that information that helps buyers avoid past fakes can sometimes help the next generation/current fakers improve their “product” and fool more people… I don’t know of a “censorship” plan can ensure that only the “righteous” have access to “truth”, short of only communicating person-to-person… And even then do you REALLY know where your words will be heard???
So what do you recommend??? Should nobody write books or post on this forum, lest it “help” the unscrupulous??? Is it better to die with one’s “secrets” than to share them? I’d like to know Bert’s thoughts on this… Hardly anybody has published more accurate information that could enable fakers than he has…
My take is that MOST fakers, who are usually anonymous and therefore have no “reputation” to lose, don’t give a Rat’s Ass about fooling EVERYBODY. The guys building the fakes aren’t the ones “fronting” them, and if SDOG’s “reputation” suffers he can always change his username… Fakers only need to fool ONE sucker per gun to make money… Being “perfect” costs them money they don’t need to spend to turn a profit…
IMHO sharing information may (???) do more good in terms helping WACA members (and yes, even “Guests”) avoid being taken than it does harm in helping fakers make better fakes… Besides, if a fake is TRULY good enough to fool everyone, then who cares??? If it bothers you, just go collect something else…
Just my Opinion,
Lou
B.T.W. I never log in to peruse this site, only if I want to post. So more often than not I show up as one of the “Guests”…
WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters
April 15, 2005
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Mike,
Look at this…
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
April 15, 2005
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Louis Luttrell said
I’d like to know Bert’s thoughts on this… Hardly anybody has published more accurate information that could enable fakers than he has…
My take is that MOST fakers, who are usually anonymous and therefore have no “reputation” to lose, don’t give a Rat’s Ass about fooling EVERYBODY.
Lou
Lou, et al,
I am of the belief that the information that I post is for the benefit of the many collectors that are seeking guidance and informed answers to the questions they have. Yes, it might also benefit the fakers out there that do take time and effort seek such information, but I choose to believe that my efforts help more than they harm. I also agree with your take in that most fakers out there are not concerned with trying fool everyone… just the fellow that resembles the people that P.T Barnum so aptly described.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
November 7, 2015
Online
Lou-
I appreciate your posts and believe they served a good purpose, I enjoy and have no problem with them and think censorship is a silly concept in this information age. Getting good information out there is the best way to help buyers avoid fakes, when possible. My point was that some SG fakers were apparently already doing a very good job in many cases. The Kopec anecdote was actually about fakers that would stamp a Colt barrel using the wrong font or some other detail and he noted that after he wrote about it they either repaired the stamp or made another. Since the SG fakers are often apparently using factory parts it presents a different challenge.
I don’t have the IT expertise to visit this site without letting my device sign me in, had never considered some of our guests could be members. I still can’t help but wonder who they might be.
Mike
November 7, 2015
Online
Bert H. said
Louis Luttrell said
I’d like to know Bert’s thoughts on this… Hardly anybody has published more accurate information that could enable fakers than he has…
My take is that MOST fakers, who are usually anonymous and therefore have no “reputation” to lose, don’t give a Rat’s Ass about fooling EVERYBODY.
Lou
Lou, et al,
I am of the belief that the information that I post is for the benefit of the many collectors that are seeking guidance and informed answers to the questions they have. Yes, it might also benefit the fakers out there that do take time and effort seek such information, but I choose to believe that my efforts help more than they harm. I also agree with your take in that most fakers out there are not concerned with trying fool everyone… just the fellow that resembles the people that P.T Barnum so aptly described.
Bert
Hey, Bert-
I certainly resemble that closing remark as I would quite likely fall for many of the fakes we have discussed on this forum. I certainly benefit from the related discussions as I have certainly missed some issues you, Lou, Bo or Bob (and many others!) could spot across a crowded room. Only problem is that I sometimes forget what y’all are patiently trying to teach me or I’m overcome by a pretty piece of wood.
Mike
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