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Hello WACA Members. I am a new member. Hoping for help and advice on a rifle I acquired recently. It is/or appears to be a 70 Super Grade Featherweight. It is in absolutely excellent condition and appears By Serial # it is mid 1963 making it way beyond the last year of cataloged production(1959). I am told it is Fake, but it looks too right, inside and outside. Until I carefully disassembled it, it looked like the screws were untouched. No underside barrel stampings. It is not stamped ‘Super’ on underside, but would it be in 1963?? Nothing looks suspicious in the stock inletting. Could it be a parts cleanup gun near the end or a Special order. The RULE Book makes note of a Late 1962 Super Grade of Wayne Miller’s with the composite butt plate, like this one. Wonder if it is stamped Super?? I do not believe it is rust blued, but I have not yet been able to put it beside a rust blued 70, then again, would it have been in 1963? Any thoughts or input would be greatly appreciated.
Griz57, Is the front sight a gold bead Redfield? The barrel is not rust blued. The only Super Grade that was made at that time was the African. I have not seen a African made in 1963. They are cataloged in 1963. So, maybe they made a small amount of them. It would be interesting to find an example to see if has the later Super Grade features. Such as a jeweled bolt body, and follower, along with the rust blued barrel. This would be a good comparison to your rifle. With the exception of Wayne Millers late made Super Grade. I have not seen another example of one made that way. Most would say that your gun is not correct. So, I am not surprized that you have been told that. The Super Grade/Super Grade Featherwieght was cataloged through 1959. I don’t think that they made any after 1958! Could Winchester have put one together in 1963?
November 5, 2014
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Hi Griz-
Is this s/n 573303 by any chance? I am afraid that a definitive answer to your question may not be possible…
What you have is a regular production 1963 vintage standard 30-06 SPRG Featherweight barreled action dropped into a legit looking SG Featherweight stock with a legit looking SG Featherweight floor plate. The barreled action lacks the engine turned bolt/extractor and rust blued ‘SUPER’ stamped barrel that characterized SG Featherweights when they were cataloged production (1955-1959). As Bob says, even if it were a parts clean-up factory gun I would expect it to have a Redfield 255 full gold front sight (0.360″ tall).
OTOH… In the rifles’s favor, the stock has a composition butt plate, indicating very late manufacture (of the stock). Since Super Grades, excluding the African, were dropped from the catalog after 1959, very few would have that feature.
In the M70 survey, I have recorded (9) standard Super Grade rifles made in 1960-1963 (excluding Africans), of which (2) have plastic butt plate stocks. Of these, (4) do not have jeweled bolts and at least (5) have Du-Lite blued barrels. Looking at SG Featherweights, I have a further (9) recorded that were made 1960-1962. Of these (4) are Super Grade Featherweight-Westerners (264 WIN MAGNUM) with the factory vent recoil pad. But (4) lack jeweling, (4) have plastic butt plates, and (5) have Du-Lite blued barrels. Looking at Africans, probably the most “reliable” source of information, I have (30) recorded from 1960-1962. Of these, (9) lack jeweling and fully (16) have Du-Lite blue. Of course there is no guarantee that all the these survey entries are legit factory guns, but the fact that you don’t see these features appear on Super Grades made before 1960 does suggest that Roger Rule’s claim that rust blue and jeweling became hit-or-miss after 1959 seems to have some merit.
In short, your rifle appears to bear the characteristics of Super Grade Rifles and Featherweights put together after they were discontinued. I do not think it is possible to “prove” that those parts were put together by the Winchester factory, but it’s also not possible to prove they weren’t. Here’s one more to mull over… Super Grade Featherweight-Westerner (264 WIN MAGNUM). This one does have the late style jeweling, aluminum SUPER GRADE floor plate, Redfield full gold front sight, and a rust blued “SUPER” barrel. Is it “real”??? Who knows?
Hope this helps,
Lou
WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters
Louis, The only thing that I can say about your Super Grade Feather Wieght Westerner is that if I owned one I would want it to look like yours! When I said that I don’t think that they made any Super Grade/Super Grade Featherwieghts after 1958 with the exception of the African. To be clear I ment regular production. I feel that these guns made up after 1958 were all special order rifles. With very few being made.
November 5, 2014
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Bob-
You’re absolutely right… Excepting the African, 1959 is the last year Super Grade Rifles and Featherweights were cataloged, and I have only (11) SG Featherweights with 1959 serial numbers (out of 173 unique serial numbers recorded to date). The numbers on standard Super Grades are similar. So I too get the sense that Winchester didn’t make many Supers after 1958 that weren’t Africans…
Because Africans are relatively hard to fake they are probably the best reference for what a “real” post-1959 Super Grade might look like. They also seem to have a much higher “survival rate” than other M70s. Probably understandable given their specialized role and not being a caliber most people would take out to the range all the time for “recreational” shoulder abuse… 
The overall “coverage” in the M70 survey to date is only about 3.4% of production, yet we’ve got (236) unique African serial numbers so far (19.2% of total).
One caveat about Super Grades in general is that, apparently, a lot of parts (including SG parts) came out of the factory after USRAC took over in 1981. So an unknown (but probably substantial) number of Supers were “born” in the 1980s assembled with genuine factory parts, and it’s not always easy to tell which are originals. For example, my Dad once bought a 1957 “Super Grade Featherweight” in 270 WIN that was actually a made-up parts gun. Jeweling was added to a standard Featherweight barreled action (Du-Lite blue and Win 103E sight) that was then dropped into a genuine NOS SG Featherweight stock/floor plate. My Dad never knew it was a fake… That particular one is NOT out there in circulation however, as I permanently “decommissioned” it. Anyone need a mint standard 270 WIN Featherweight barreled action with non-factory jeweling??? 
I keep thinking I’m going to put a regular stock on it and give it to one of the Kids to hunt with…
The SG Featherweight-Westerner I bought does stack up well compared side-by-side with more believable examples I have, e.g. the rust blue, etc. To my eye the recoil pad on it looks like a factory installation. I like it, but I’m not going to get in a huff if people call me out on it… They may be right!!!
Lou
WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters
Hello Bo & Lou, Thank you both for your info and thoughts on this rifle. It does lack the engine turned bolt and follower. I will have to check the sight. If I am interpreting you correctly, your thinking it is a standard ’63 barreled action in a factory P-64 Super Grade Stock? Seems it would be extremely hard for someone to come up with a near new condition late(composite plate) stock to drop a standard action into, but who knows? Was hoping there was a way to confirm how that Serial # came out of the factory( stock wise). Well, Thank you gentlemen again for your expertise and input. Regards.
Sorry Lou, That IS the serial #! Has this rifle surfaced before? I slid the sight hood off. The front sight is not Gold bead. It is silver colored. On the flat sides where it is pressed into the sight base there is a small circular stamp. One side has an E and the other a 3. Had to get a magnifying glass to discern. Cheers! Griz.
Griz, I’m no expert on the Model 70 — you’ve already heard from them. But you’ve just raised the question how difficult it might be to acquire a late Super Grade stock into which a standard grade Featherweight barreled action might be installed.
Given the different barrel contours and the Featherweight’s absence of a rear sight boss, i presume the WRA part number for a Super Grade Featherweight stock would have been different than the part number for a Super Grade standard style rifle. [BERT H. are you reading this?]
At the end of production, any leftover inventory of Super Grade Featherweight stocks would have at least remained available for sale, if not sold off to parts dealers like GPC, for resale to anyone. The stocks were likely not hard to acquire.
Our members who are indeed experts on the subject have advised me that Winchester would freely sell without reservation or inquiry, Super Grade stocks as a separate part to anyone who wanted one and had the money, even during production of the rifles. What Winchester would NOT sell, I was told, were floorplates marked “Super Grade” as a separate part. [EDIT: LOU HAS CALLED BEE ESS ON THIS LATTER ASSERTION, ALTHOUGH IN MORE GENTEEL LANGUAGE BEFITTING A SOUTHERN GENTLEMAN. Apparently Winchester would sell SG floorplates to Lucifer in the flesh as long as his plastic would clear. My apologies.]
I had bought off a local consignment rack a very nice Model 70 “Super Grade” that had been rebarreled by a well regarded San Antonio gunsmith with a Varmint contour, sightless 26″ SAKO 22-250 barrel. (Sako sold very accurate barrels to the gunsmith trade in the Postwar years.)
My friends here, after seeing some pix, sorted the gun out for me: A 1948-49 cloverleaf tang action with unmarked standard style floorplate, set into a 1953-54 Super Grade stock inletted for an oval tang. And handsomely done, too, but not a true “Super Grade.”
Because I paid less for the whole rifle, which included a mint Leupold Vari- X II 3 to 9 scope and a set of genuine Super Grade swivels, than the stock alone would bring on the parts market, I was and still am happy with it.
The absence of a Super Grade mark on your rifle’s aluminum floorplate could be a fluke but, given Winchester’s known reluctance to sell separately the ones marked SG, it would seem to argue against the rifle being a factory original Super Grade Featherweight.
Of course, with New Haven Winchesters, never say never….
- Bill
WACA # 65205; life member, NRA; member, TGCA; member, TSRA; amateur preservationist
"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.
Hello Zebulon. Thanks for weighing in. I am getting an education here. Based on what you are saying, maybe not so hard getting a factory super grade stock during or after production ceased. With the composite butt plate, it would obviously been late production. The aluminum floorplate on this rifle IS stamped -Super Grade- (See pic). The underside of the barrel is not stamped SUPER. I am agreeing, after Bo & Lou’s input, That this is a standard ’63 barreled action laid in a Super Grade stock. The barreled action is missing to many Super Grade specifications. My question now is, could it have come out of the factory this way, possibly as a special order and they had a stock and floorplate? IF it was put together outside of Winchester, I would say it was done very meticulously. Like Lou said, Probably no way to to confirm if it did or didn’t. Nothing under the bottom metal or in the stock inletting looked suspicious or monkeyed with. As in my initial post, this rifle looked like it had never been apart, or used at all, including screw slots. Underside of action and trigger assembly looked new and untouched. Well, right or not, it is a great looking ’63 Featherweight. Thanks again! Griz.
November 5, 2014
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Hi Griz-
Unfortunately there are no surviving factory records for Model 70s documenting caliber/style by serial number. If there were our lives would be much easier…
I asked about the serial number b/c I’d added it to the survey recently. I don’t remember where I saw it, maybe GunBroker? Had you posted photos of it on another Forum? For some reason I didn’t write down where I saw it, but the composition butt plate on a Super Grade stock is such an uncommon thing that I thought it worth asking…
My understanding is that once US Repeating Arms Company took over the New Haven plant in 1981, all bets were off as far as wholesale selling of “obsolete” parts inventory. Barrels, stocks, floor plates, everything but receivers, were sold in bulk. I have been told that this included a substantial number of (factory new) Super Grade stocks, which at one point could be bought off gun show tables.
Something to keep in mind (which many folks don’t know), it that prior to 1955, Model 70 Super Grades differed from Standard rifles in only three parts; the Super Grade stock, Super Grade stamped floor plate, and Redfield full gold bead front sight. Metal finishes were the same, barrels were not stamped “SUPER” and bolt parts were not engine turned. This changed in 1955, the year that the Super Grade Featherweight was first cataloged. Barrels went back to being rust blued and were usually stamped “SUPER” to identify the finish. Action rails got hand lapped and were often stamped with a “backwards S” on the recoil lug. Bolt body, extractor collar/bolt stop extension, extractor, and follower got jeweled.
My “expectation” (meaning not based on anything but prejudice and personal observation) would be that Super Grades assembled after 1959 were put together using whatever parts were on-hand. If by 1963 there weren’t any rust blued barrels or jeweled bolt parts available, the guns would be built using parts with the standard finishes. Just like Super Grades were built before 1955. OTOH… I would expect that the three “defining” Super Grade parts; stock, floor plate, and front sight, would always be present on a factory built rifle. Maybe I’m wrong… 
So I would have liked to see a Redfield 255 front sight on your rifle… Did you happen to take a photo of the front sight while you had the hood off? In my experience the regular silver bead Win 103E front sight used on standard Featherweights doesn’t have anything stamped where you can see it.
At the end of the day I don’t think it’s possible to confirm or deny the factory originality of your rifle, but if it were mine I’d have to put a Redfield 255 on it just to satisfy my own prejudice…
Best,
Lou
WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters
Lou, do you.know whether Super Grade stocks for the Featherweight had a separate and discrete part number? I ask because the barrel channel would necessarily have to be cut shallower and more narrow, nor would it be mortised for a rear sight boss.
Griz, I didn’t read your fact summary closely enough. Obviously. It would now seem to me the reverse of the argument is true and the existence of a SG marked floorplate argues strongly in favor of the rifle being a genuine Super Grade rather than a parts gun.
I have read but can’t immediately recall where — possibly Rule – that there were late Pre’64 Model 70 Africans that came from New Haven with aluminum floorplates marked “Super Grade.” If that is so, it slightly argues against a bulk sale of obsolete Super Grade floorplates before the end of 1980 . They had other things to do with them.
In fact, the The African was continued as the only Super Grade in the line until the sale at the end of 1980 to USRAC, the only difference between the pre-64 and post-63 models being the revised action and a shorter barrel without a sight boss. The stocks were contracted out to a local shop and were hand checkered as before.
The post 63 Africans continued to have a floorplate stamped “Super Grade” but whether those were made with the remaining supply of aluminum plates leftover after Featherweight production ceased, until they were used up, nobody alive likely knows. My own African was made in 1980 and wears a steel SG floorplate, which might indicate the leftover aluminum had been used up.
All can agree that Winchester was extremely reluctant to dispose of Before the sale to USRAC, Winchester was inclined to use leftover parts from obsolete models in the production of new models, as the production files at Cody can attest. The documents reproduced and published by Houze about parts sourcing for the Model 52 Sporting are illuminating.
- Bill
WACA # 65205; life member, NRA; member, TGCA; member, TSRA; amateur preservationist
"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.
November 5, 2014
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Hi Zeb-
I do not have a Parts Catalog from 1955-1959 handy, but the 1950 Parts catalog does give Part Nos. and Prices for Super Grade stocks in multiple “flavors”, e.g. regular barrel without recoil pad and C-1 barrel with recoil pad, AND Super Grade floor plates. SG Featherweight stocks and aluminum Super Grade floor plates were unique parts and if included in the later Parts Catalogs would have been given unique Part Nos.
I’ll have to get a later Parts Catalog (reprint) to check…
Also, the “bulk sale” of factory NOS parts I was referring to was not done by Olin/Winchester in the early 1960s, but by US Repeating Arms Company in the early 1980s, by which time pre-64 parts like milled steel/aluminum floor plates were “obsolete”… This was also the time when some obsolete pre-64 barrels in rare chamberings were “liberated” from the dank long-forgotten corners of New Haven store rooms.
People with USRAC factory “connections” got all manner of stuff… Did you see the genuine factory (late style) Super Grade die stamp that Bob Walker had listed on eBay a couple weeks ago???
Just my take…
Lou
WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters
Lou, Thanks.
And what would anyone do with such a stamp, we wonders?
Display it behind glass as an historical object for serene contemplation?
- Bill
WACA # 65205; life member, NRA; member, TGCA; member, TSRA; amateur preservationist
"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.
November 5, 2014
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Hi Zeb-
I’m sure that’s what they’d do!!! Just like the original factory roll dies that came out of the factory back then… That’s what I’d do with it!!! I’d like to have photos, but the artifacts themselves hold no particular interest for me…
Bob Walker had/has some neat stuff that came from the old factory after the sale… In fact, the M70 single shot interchangeable barrel ammo test rifle (“Bolt Action A” No. 27) that I have came from Walker. He had three of them, one of which is the one he sold to Roger Rule that’s pictured in Rule’s book.
I also got a couple M70 1950s factory assembler’s tools from Bob; the bench fixture used to assemble the firing pin/main spring/bolt sleeve assembly and the specialized pair of pliers used to install the extractor collar on the bolt body. I believe those are the only “specialized” tools needed to assemble a pre-64 M70. The rest just requires various drifts, screw drivers, and a brace bit for the action screws…
It happens that I used the bench fixture this week when changing out the safety on s/n 12. Otherwise it just sits behind glass where I can contemplate upon it…
Best,
Lou
WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters
Hello Lou & Zeb, Thanks again for your wealth of knowledge and input. I am learning more than I thought I might. Appreciate it. Lou, to answer your questions, Yes, I acquired this rifle off Gunbroker not long ago. Have either of you ever seen a legit Post ’59, standard or featherweight super grade with composite butt plate? Attached are pics of both sides of the sight as well as the proofs in the late position and bolt and receiver #’s. Are the Redfield 255 sights available anywhere? Thanks again. Griz.
Griz57 said
Hello Lou & Zeb, Thanks again for your wealth of knowledge and input. I am learning more than I thought I might. Appreciate it. Lou, to answer your questions, Yes, I acquired this rifle off Gunbroker not long ago. Have either of you ever seen a legit Post ’59, standard or featherweight super grade with composite butt plate? Attached are pics of both sides of the sight as well as the proofs in the late position and bolt and receiver #’s. Are the Redfield 255 sights available anywhere? Thanks again. Griz.
Griz, yes the Redfield #255 Full Gold Bead can be had from alibaba40_persiancarpetsNgunparts.com, or somewhere on eBay, but brace yourself for the price. First, I’d put a free “WTB” post on our Swap Meet topic and see if you draw any offers. PLEASE DO BE CAREFUL and make sure the offeror is a legitimate member of WACA and don’t hesitate to ask any of the officers or directors if they know about him. As you know, there is a difference between being a member of this forum and being a member of WACA. We have been plagued with scammers who offer an unrealistic price and disappear after they get your money. My advice is to stick with WACA members who are known to deal Winchester parts reliably.
Another option is pre64win.com, reliable and informed parts dealers. We know them. Unfortunately, last time I checked, they were out of the sight you want. I’m told they were pricing them at $400-$450 when they had some in stock. You may have to be patient.
There has been a lot of sight stripping going on for decades. My 1950 Supergrade Model 70 lost its #3276/BM and Redfield #255 Full Gold Bead along the way before it got to me. I found the sight hood easily enough although it cost a C-note. To be completely honest, I prefer the Redfield Sourdough and that’s what my Model 70 now wears, along with a Lyman 48WJS-H micrometer receiver sight. I set it up for hunting, not paper.
Here is what the Redfield #255 looks like. This one goes on my Model 52C Sporting. As you can see, “bead” is a little misleading.
- Bill
WACA # 65205; life member, NRA; member, TGCA; member, TSRA; amateur preservationist
"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.
The front sight on your rifle is not the 103 type found on the Pre 64 Model. It is a post 64 style front sight. You could add the Redfield 255 Gold bead sight to your rifle. I learned long ago when you try to make something into something it is not it becomes a big money pit. Believe it or not there are folks out there that have made Winchester stocks. The custom shop out of Montana sells Model 70 Super Grade Stocks. They are expensive. For example I knew of a man in Pa. that made Model 43 Special stocks, and they were done very well. You have a rifle with a very suspect stock, a aluminum Super Grade floor Plate, a barreled action . 30’06 feather wieght with a incorrect front sight. You might want to contact the seller with these concerns.
Bo Rich said
……..You have a rifle with a very suspect stock, a aluminum Super Grade floor Plate, a barreled action . 30’06 feather wieght with a incorrect front sight……
Bo, I’ve looked at the pics of the rifle in question until my eyes are sore and can see nothing wrong with the stock.
Granted, I don’t recall ever seeing more than on Featherweight Super Grade in the flesh, so I’m hardly qualified to judge.
The only thing visible to me different than the typical item is the plastic buttplate, although we know from Lou that Winchester installed that buttplate on at least one other legitimate SG Featherweight made up post catalog.
I can add that WRA did the same on several 1960 Model 52C Sporting rifles..Seewin showed me a picture of one a couple of serial digits off mine.
Checkered aluminum widow’s peak buttplates for the pre-64 Featherweight are not too hard to find. If the stock in question were faked, it would seem oddly careless to use the “non-typical” version that would draw attention. But maybe I’m overthinking the issue.
What am I overlooking?
- Bill
WACA # 65205; life member, NRA; member, TGCA; member, TSRA; amateur preservationist
"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.
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