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Hello Members
Back in October, I stumbled upon an ad for an 1883 Winchester Hotchkiss that was for sale. The ad was without pictures but the description mentioned that the rifle was checkered. Knowing that most of these rifles were made for military use, my interest was piqued. I asked the seller to send photos which they did. I realized that this was not your average 1883 WH.
I started doing some online research when I stumbled on Jim Curlovic here on the WACA forum. Jim told me that he could get the records from Cody if I promised to become a member (which I promptly did). Jim informed me that this rifle is one of 28 1883 Winchester Hotchkiss Fancy Sporting rifles! The Winchester letter states that it left the factory with a round barrel and rubber butt plate. I was shocked to say the least.
The seller told me later that the rifle was unable to fully chamber a 45-70 dummy round and that they were sending it out to have a “professional” inspect it. I have kept in touch with the dealer since Oct. but had never heard any info about the functional issue. I’m sure that the dealer has no idea of the rarity of the rifle.
Yesterday, the dealer finally called me to talk about the rifle. I don’t believe that they ever sent it out for inspection. I told the manager that my intention is to restore the rifle back to its original configuration. That will include a new barrel with correct roll stamp. We struck a deal, and I was able to purchase the rifle for $800.
I trying decided if the purchase price was good or not but, it was love at first sight. I am not necessarily a Winchester collector (I own a Model 97 Black Diamond). My interest is primarily with vintage sporting rifles. I enjoy doing the conservation/restoration as well as reloading. Last year, I took a PA doe with my restored 1899 Remington Lee in 30-40 Krag (one of about 1400 sporting rifles).
This rifle is going to need work to get her back to its original configuration. I intend to have the Wyoming Armory color case harden the receiver after I do the metal prep. I suspect that I will need to have a new barrel installed with proper roll stamp. I probably will need to source some parts along the way. I plan on documenting the journey in this thread. I am currently working on a couple projects before I get to this one.
Here are pics from the seller for you to look at. I will post more once I get the rifle in hand.
Kevin –
This has been an interesting journey for you. I’m looking forward to following your progress. Obviously you will know much more once you have it in hand. But from what you do know, what are the current deviations from originality?
Hi Steve. Here is what I know so far. The receiver should be color case hardened. The barrel has no markings on it. I don’t know if it is a replacement or the original that has been altered. The forearm checkering is crude compared to the stock, but the quality of the wood and the horn inlay lead me to believe that it is original.
I’m not sure if the butt plate is original or not. Jim told me that he has not seen an original rubber butt plate.
This should be an interesting journey. At some point, I would like to take the old girl out deer hunting.
I’d like to see a picture of the barrel address. You should really not touch anything until Jim can get a better look. Restoring something this rare will definitely ruin any value of the rifle. If that is important to you. I’ve only seen one of these for sale before and I was stupid for not buying it. I am not an expert on these and only have a military rifle and an earlier carbine. My rifle is case colored and the front sight is very simple.
Like Steve said, what do you think is not correct? Have you sent pictures to Jim?
Hi Chuck. I did send pictures to Jim when I first stumbled upon the rifle. He confirmed that it was an original fancy sporter. There is no barrel address on the rifle.
I’m certainly not going to do anything to ruin the value of the gun. I do think that there has been some bubba gunsmithing performed. I will know better once it is in hand.
Thanks for looking.
Leroy Merz has a Hotchkiss deluxe 2nd model sporting rifle for sale on his website to compare to:
Don
deerhunter said
Leroy Merz has a Hotchkiss deluxe 2nd model sporting rifle for sale on his website to compare to:Don
Thanks, that’s more like I would expect for a 2nd Model including the cracked stock.
kevindpm61 said
Hi Chuck. I did send pictures to Jim when I first stumbled upon the rifle. He confirmed that it was an original fancy sporter. There is no barrel address on the rifle.I’m certainly not going to do anything to ruin the value of the gun. I do think that there has been some bubba gunsmithing performed. I will know better once it is in hand.
Thanks for looking.
Original, including the barrel?
Thanks for the heads up Don. Time for me to go down the Winchester Hotchkiss rabbit hole! Jim didn’t make any mention of the barrel. I’ll need to look at it closely when it arrives.
The ramp front sight does’t look correct and it is reblued, so restoring it correctly isn’t going to hurt it
I agree that the barrel is wrong but the rest may be OK. Finding a replacement barrel will be tough if not impossible. I will see if I have any info on the Sporters.
Here are some pictures of a 1883 Military Rifle.
The one Leroy has is an older 1879 model with an easy to find front sight. Notice the difference of the 2 barrel addresses.
I know that I will need to have a new barrel made for the rifle. Determining the contour will be a separate issue. Once I have a chance to remove the forearm and inspect the inletting and the underside of the barrel, I hope that I can get a better feel for the situation.
I realize that the rifle has been molested but bringing her back to the original configuration will be fun. I’ll need all the help that I can get from the members on WACA.
After looking through a bunch of books I really couldn’t find much. But all 3 models of the Hotchkiss had a Sporter and used 26″ barrels. Standard was round but some did come with octagon. Also listed was a 40-65 Hotchkiss cartridge? See January 1884 Catalog page 25 or Madis’ book. So maybe you could find a Sporter barrel and have it re blued?
Like many new ideas the Military Establishment was not ready for a bolt action. Same goes for any repeaters or semi auto pistols. You should read some of the Military trials reports. They whined about some really ridiculous things. But, single shots, lever actions and many revolvers went by the way side. And so did the 45-70 Military round.
The dealer said that a 45-70 cartridge would enter the chamber but then have resistance and not fully chamber. I was not aware of the 40-65 Hotchkiss cartridge. I’m pretty certain that Jim said it lettered to be chambered in 45-70. Looks like I’ll need to do a chamber cast.
steve004 said
I’d bet money it’s not a .40 caliber cartridge.
I would too.. But the catalog says they were at least thinking of making some. We learn something new all the time.
Chuck said
steve004 said
I’d bet money it’s not a .40 caliber cartridge.
I would too.. But the catalog says they were at least thinking of making some. We learn something new all the time.
To my knowledge no one has seen one. It would be interesting to know if Jim Curlovic knows of any in existence.
I have seen an octagon barreled one. I thought it was very cool looking.
I’ve never owned a Hotchkiss.
Chuck said
steve004 said
I’d bet money it’s not a .40 caliber cartridge.
I would too.. But the catalog says they were at least thinking of making some. We learn something new all the time.
He stated it, letters as 45-70, it may be the original barrel that the roll stamp was polished off, it has the correct rear sight for a sporting rifle, the ramp throws it off. Wood looks fine.
I had a chance to dig up the info that Jim sent me from Cody. It does not make any mention of caliber. My bad. I haven’t been able to attach what Jim forwarded to me.
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