Hey Lou,

I suspect this is another fraudulent model 70 in a rare caliber.  Looking at the very funky caliber stamp, my guess is that it was previously chambered for 30-06.  Did the 30-06 have the same rate of twist as the 30 U.S. (aka 30-40 Krag)?  I’m very new to collecting model 70’s and am in the process of reading Roger Rule’s book from cover to cover.  I am posting the subject rifle for educational purposes only–what are your thoughts?  The only model 70 I have in my collection so far is that “RCS” monogrammed super grade 458 African that I know is 100% correct with added provenance.

https://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-for-sale-online/rifles/winchester-rifles-model-70-pre-64/winchester-model-70-pre-64-carbine-30-us-30-40-krag-made-in-1949-.cfm?gun_id=102902410

Thanks,

Don

Tha

Bert H. said
Don,

The caliber marking is very obviously faked.  Winchester stopped marking the 30/40 Krag barrels with “.30 U.S.” approximately 20-years prior to when that rifle was manufactured.  If that rifle was legitimate, the correct caliber would be marked “.30 ARMY“

 

 

Bert

  

Thanks Bert.  I didn’t realize that.  Good to know.

Don

Hi Don-

Here are a couple more things for your RCS Model 70 African dossier (if you don’t have them).  First is a page from the 1956 Winchester Rifles & Shotguns Retail Catalog with the initial listing of the African.  The second is the Special Ornamentation page from the 1960 Distributor Catalog showing the price of adding three gold inlaid block letter initials to the trigger guard of a Winchester rifle or shotgun…

Cheers,

Lou

Louis Luttrell said
Hi Don-

This is a clip from a Winchester Barrel Specs blueprint from 1930.  As you can see, while the twist rate for both 30 Army and 30 Gov’t’06 is 1 in 10″, the former used a 6-groove barrel and the latter 4-groove.  I suspect that the rifle was originally a 30-06 but the barrel is something of recent manufacture…

FWIW… My inclination is to think that any “rare uncataloged” Model 70 from that seller (Bear Arms LLC) is a forgery… I’ve no prior record of that S/N in the surveys to tell me what it “used to be”… It’s funny b/c I have seen several “rare” Model 70s in 30-40 Krag (I don’t think I believe any of them are genuine) and they’re all marked “30 U.S.”…

Just my take…

Lou

  

Once again, great information regarding the 6-groove  vs. the 4-groove differences in those calibers.  I have a lot to learn….

Thanks again for your expertise,

Don

Louis Luttrell said
Happy Thanksgiving!!!

Model 70 S/N 213219 was in the survey from its prior incarnation as a MC comb 30-06 Standard rifle in RIA Auction 1028, before it acquired a new barrel, new stock, and total finish restoration.  Since RIA does not picture the serial number, it is “possible” that there was a “typo” in their catalog.  But it’s doubtful…

Although the Model 70 in 7 M/M was last cataloged in 1949, a 1952 serial number is plausible through barrel clean-up.  The last “batch” of 7 M/M rifles are in the 295,000 to 300,000 range (1954) corresponding to the last big barrel clean-up effort.  I have S/N 297054, which I believe is genuine.

But even without the prior record, I believe that the barrel markings on S/N 213219 are enough to conclude that the current barrel is a forgery.  If one looks closely, ALL of the letters/numbers/dashes are rounded on the ends. 

I’ve encountered dozens of similarly marked Model 70 barrels, all in “rare” calibers or configurations.  I do not know if they’re done by laser engraving (my guess) or replica roll dies, but they are all very uniform in depth (not a characteristic of a roll die) with rounded strokes.  Lasers can’t make square corners.  Neither can rotary bit pantograph gravers.  Roll dies can, and Winchester’s pre-64 roll dies did.

FWIW… Here are four 7 M/M barrel markings that I think are correct.  Two are Style 1 (1936-1941 barrel dates), S/Ns 25488 and 66220, and two are Style 3A (1941-1950 barrel dates), S/Ns 81568 and 297054.  You can’t see the difference looking at the pics on a cell phone, but I think it’s clear when enlarged on a computer screen.  Roll dies make (at least some) square corners and are often “chip” as they wear (missing bits of letters).

I personally don’t see much “wrong” with the serial number stamp on 213219.  The whole serial number is more deeply imprinted at the top than the bottom, not just the “1”s.  Sloppy, yes, but not that unusual IMHO…

BTW… The $17,500 asking price for S/N 213219 is only about 3X what the rifle would be worth if it were genuine… 😀

Be careful out there!!!

Lou

  

Good! well explained.