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November 19, 2006
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I’ve never heard of these before. Nor have I heard of a long-chambered trapdoor Springfield. I think it might be a 2.4 inch case.
I see it looks like RIA had a rifle:
https://www.rockislandauction.com/detail/60/1477/springfield-armory-us-1881-rifle-4580500
So, this would interchange with what in a Winchester Single-Shot?
November 7, 2015
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I think a Single Shot or Sharps rifle would make more sense for this cartridge, a Single Shot or Sharps in 45-90 would make even more sense. Maybe that’s why this concept didn’t catch on.
Mike
November 19, 2006
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I wonder if they would fit Chuck’s rifle? Maybe would have been what he’s been looking for?
March 31, 2009
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steve004 said
I wonder if they would fit Chuck’s rifle? Maybe would have been what he’s been looking for?
I bet these are just modified 45-70’s. Or maybe a 45-90? If someone is interested I can ask my military expert friend. The 45 EX has a 3 1/4″ case and is 3 5/8″ OAL.
What I am working on is on the left and a 45-90 is on the right.
November 19, 2006
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I think it has also been referred to as the, “2.4 inch Sharpshooter”.
Pulled this from a cartridge forum (credit to, “Ray”):
Back in the mid 1870s there was an interest within the Army to compete in formal competition with organizations such as the newly formed NRA. But the Congress was in no mood to appropriate money for such things as “target shooting”. So, under the cover of producing an experimental sniper or long range military rifle and cartridge, the Long Range Rifle and the Lengthened Chamber Cartridge were developed. But it didn’t last long because with less than 200 of the rifles having been made, the project was terminated. But, it did show that the regular 2″.1 case with a 500 grain bullet was just as accurate, and so the efforts weren’t completely in vain. By the mid 1880s the Army initiated a program of regular target practice for troops in the field and competition shooting was recognized as a legitimate military activity.
March 31, 2009
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Talked to my friend Craig Riesch today at the shop. He says the Military was experimenting with the use of 500 grain bullets instead of the 405 grain. They made somewhere between 50 to 60 target rifles for this ammo test. He thinks the cases are a little longer than the 45-70’s. During this experiment they found they did not have to use a longer case and just loaded the 500 grain in the 45-70 cases. The ammo can be found but a rifle used during the testing is rare and the last one he bid on he couldn’t buy it for $10,000.
Watch this video. It ties together what we are talking about.
October 14, 2024
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Great video. Thanks for sharing.
November 11, 2012
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They could very well be from the Sandy Hook trials of 1879. Google Sandy Hook trial by Research Press UK and David has a very good story about them.
November 7, 2015
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Old-Win said
They could very well be from the Sandy Hook trials of 1879. Google Sandy Hook trial by Research Press UK and David has a very good story about them.
IIRC Pugsley’s correspondence file in the McCracken Library mentions the Sandy Hook trials in multiple letters but I don’t recall much discussion of chamberings. May be worth another look.
Mike
December 9, 2002
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Chuck,
What a great, informative Video!
Thanks for sharing, and Posting! 
Anthony
April 3, 2018
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Excellent video.
This subject does indicate that the 45-90 WCF might have been an even better cartridge, but the Army was already committed to the 1873 Springfield and the 45-70 cartridge. Unfortunately, the Springfield was a failure as a battle rifle as seen with the 7th Cavalry in 1876. Even with black powder, extraction difficulties plagued this rifle design. It does beg the question as to better rifles/actions that could have been utilized including both Sharps and Remington. The earlier percussion Sharps were modified (Meachem conversion) to successfully handle the 45-70 2.1 in cartridge. The 50-70 preceded the 45-70, also in a similar trapdoor design.
An early case of poor design and judgment in fielding a battle rifle by US Ordnance and the Army. The 1874 Sharps or 1878 Sharps/Borchardt rifle would have been a better choice as a battle rifle with the 45-70 cartridge.
Lt Col R Marriott
NRA-Life
March 31, 2009
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I don’t think the Trapdoor was a failure. The biggest problem was the fact that the Military didn’t keep up with the latest technologies and made choices based on cost and simplicity. Yes the early copper cases didn’t work well. Custer could have brought some better arms with him but he didn’t. Even if he had his tactics and the fact that he was outnumbered 4 to 5 times over was his demise. The Indians had a countless number of arrows and as many repeaters as they could get their hands on. I would have rather had a Henry, 66 or a 1873 than the Trapdoor. Oh, but these waste ammo and it’s heavy to transport.
August 14, 2021
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450 Fuller said
Excellent video.This subject does indicate that the 45-90 WCF might have been an even better cartridge, but the Army was already committed to the 1873 Springfield and the 45-70 cartridge. Unfortunately, the Springfield was a failure as a battle rifle as seen with the 7th Cavalry in 1876. Even with black powder, extraction difficulties plagued this rifle design. It does beg the question as to better rifles/actions that could have been utilized including both Sharps and Remington. The earlier percussion Sharps were modified (Meachem conversion) to successfully handle the 45-70 2.1 in cartridge. The 50-70 preceded the 45-70, also in a similar trapdoor design.
An early case of poor design and judgment in fielding a battle rifle by US Ordnance and the Army. The 1874 Sharps or 1878 Sharps/Borchardt rifle would have been a better choice as a battle rifle with the 45-70 cartridge.
Lt Col R Marriott
NRA-Life
I couldn’t disagree with you more. Stating the “Trapdoor” Springfield was a failure of the battle rifle at the Little Big Horn is equivalent to stating the M16 was a failure as a battle rifle in Viet Nam. You do know the problem at the Little Bighorn was with the copper cased ammunition and a similar situation to the ammo debacle when the M16 was first fielded.
Of course, I prefer a Sharps rifle and shoot one in competition. But I also collect and fire original Trapdoors and it’s a fine rifle that served into the Philippines Insurrection.
You have to remember the army was looking to convert thousands upon thousands of muzzleloading 1861s et al, and that’s where the evolution of the Trapdoor came from.
You should pose your hypothesis over on the Trapdoor Collector forum to Dick Hosmer and Al Fresca.
November 11, 2012
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I’m sorry to say, but most of the information in that video is very misleading. The narrator mentions using the Springfield rifle in the Creedmoor matches against the Martini rifles and we’re getting beaten hands down. Neither of those rifles were ever used in the Creedmoor matches. They were just not up to the task. He also mentions the Creedmoor match of 1879 but by that time the Creedmoor matches were basically over and they only people that showed up, were from the US. The rifles used during the Creedmoor matches where the 1874 Sharps, the 1878 Sharps towards the end of that era, rolling blocks, an occasional Ballard and Maynard. The narrator also says that the 45-70 has problems after 500 yards. Just not the case as they’re very effective to long distances.The Sandy Hook trials showed that even our 45-70 was a better cartridge than the Martini. Keep in mind, that this is shortly after the Civil War and at that time military rifles under certain conditions, were used for volley fire. Pickets Charge is a good example as the northern soldiers were told to set their sights at a certain range and just fire. When you’ve got thousands of bullets raining down on you as you march across the field a good many of you aren’t going to make it. Even though the oppostion wasn’r aiming directly at an individual, volley fire was very effective. The trap door was a very good rifle for volley fire as many shots could be gotten often in a minute The Sharps Rifle company developed the 2.4″ Sharps cartridge which today is known to us as the 45-90. It has been loaded in many configurations and bullet weights and even Winchester loaded it in a case and called it the 45-85 and there’s one or two 1886 rifles that have that cartridge designation.
August 14, 2021
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I haven’t read my Creedmoor literature for many years, The Rolling Block and Sharps were up there at the top because they were made as Long Range Rifles and held tighter manufacturing specs, but I think the Trapdoor was up to the task in the hands of a good shooter even if made to only mil spec tolerances.
“THE SHOOTER at the heavy bench rest squinted as he aligned his .45-70 Allin-Springfield Model 1873 Army rifle on the distant target. The rifle fore-stock and barrel was cradled in a rest; the butt was supported by his shoulder. The rear sight was flipped up to its full height, so with no stock support for his head, the rifle tester from Springfield Armory worked carefully to align high rear and low muzzle sight on the speck that was the target – a surveyed 2,500 yards distant.
Holding his breath, he squeezed the 7-pound trigger. The rifle fired, and some 15 seconds later, signals from the target indicated that his shot had struck well inside the 6-foot diameter bullseye on a target well over a mile away”
Excerpt from the Sandy Hook testing as you noted.
March 31, 2009
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Whether the video was accurate or not the Military was testing the target rifles with the 45-80-500 bullets. The military did not continue to use them but just loaded the 45-70 with the heavier bullet. The rifles are very rare and ammo can occasionally be found.
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