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March 31, 2009
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I have found a Frankenchester Hotchkiss. I would like to buy it but the seller thinks it is real and very special.
The Winchester Catalogs from 1879 to April 1884 show the barrel to be 32″ and the caliber to be 45-100. But the same catalogs list the 45-100 cartridge as a Sharp.
The September 1882 Catalog shows the same 32″ barrel but now lists the caliber as 45. It shows a cartridge that says U.S. Govt. 45. After this date all the Catalogs say 45.
The January 1884 Catalog shows the barrel length to be 28″. This coincides with the change from the 1st and 2nd Models to the 3rd Model of 1883.
The other thing that shows up is the listing of a 40-65 cartridge. This is the only time this caliber was listed for the Hotchkiss.
No one has ever seen a Winchester box that calls out for the Hotchkiss. The same thing goes for a 45-100 or 40-65 cartridge. There is 40-65 ammo for the 1886. The Military produced their own ammo, but I have never seen a box that says for the Hotchkiss.
I have never seen an early musket to know what the barrel address may be or if the caliber is stamped on the barrel.
The bolt action Hotchkiss was ahead of it’s time and didn’t sell well. The Military testing in 1878 approved the Musket but very few were bought by the Military for the Army and Navy. The Chinese bought a bunch and the French a small amount.
Did Winchester ever make 40-100 ammo for the Hotchkiss? Same for the 40-65?
April 15, 2005
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Chuck,
I suspect what you discovered in those early catalogs were misprints or typo’s. I believe it should have been “45-500” versus “45-100”. Further, I believe that almost all Hotchkiss Repeaters were chambered for the 45-70 Government cartridge with the exception of a small number made for the 43 Spanish cartridge. I highly recommend contacting Jim Curlovic.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
November 7, 2015
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I seem to recall 45 caliber was sometimes expressed as 45/100 as in 45 100ths of an inch. For me in a military rifle of that era that would mean 45-70 or 45 Guvmint.
Mike
March 31, 2009
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Bert H. said
Chuck,
I suspect what you discovered in those early catalogs were misprints or typo’s. I believe it should have been “45-500” versus “45-100”. Further, I believe that almost all Hotchkiss Repeaters were chambered for the 45-70 Government cartridge with the exception of a small number made for the 43 Spanish cartridge. I highly recommend contacting Jim Curlovic.
Bert
Mis prints or early developments that never came to life are definitely possible.
Jim and I have been talking a lot on this subject. Just hoping someone has a Musket and can clear up some of the issues.
As far as I can prove and I agree with you, all American Hotchkiss were chambered for the 45-70. This particular musket has had a chamber cast and is longer than a 45-70 case. Except the carbines. Some were 45-55 but maybe just the Military models? The Chinese did get 43 and 11 mm. I have no idea what the French got?
March 31, 2009
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TXGunNut said
I seem to recall 45 caliber was sometimes expressed as 45/100 as in 45 100ths of an inch. For me in a military rifle of that era that would mean 45-70 or 45 Guvmint.
Mike
Mike, you’re correct and that may be what was meant? I have a 2nd Model Military carbine and a 3rd Model Military rifle and each are 45 Cal. But the carbine should be shot with the 45-55 load. The Military found the 70 grs to be too much. The other thing is that the 1st and 2nd Model Military carbines are a joint effort between Winchester and the Springfield Armory. The 3rd Model Military rifle is all Winchester parts.
November 7, 2015
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Chuck said
TXGunNut said
I seem to recall 45 caliber was sometimes expressed as 45/100 as in 45 100ths of an inch. For me in a military rifle of that era that would mean 45-70 or 45 Guvmint.
Mike
Mike, you’re correct and that may be what was meant? I have a 2nd Model Military carbine and a 3rd Model Military rifle and each are 45 Cal. But the carbine should be shot with the 45-55 load. The Military found the 70 grs to be too much. The other thing is that the 1st and 2nd Model Military carbines are a joint effort between Winchester and the Springfield Armory. The 3rd Model Military rifle is all Winchester parts.
Chuck-
As far as the rifle or carbine is concerned the chambering is probably best described as 45-70 or as I prefer 45 Guvmint. Like you I find the variations of a few of the 45 (and 50) caliber cartridges fascinating and confusing when two or more cartridges share very similar overall dimensions or may be chambered in the same rifle. I believe a similar practice was used with the Trapdoor. The confusion continues when modern weapons in 45-70 (and 45 Colt comes to mind) will safely chamber cartridges capable of pressures and velocities likely not imagined 153 years ago.
I was disappointed to discover during a recent safe dive a Hotchkiss has yet to follow me home. Perhaps I may need to be more proactive in this area.
Mike
March 31, 2009
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TXGunNut said
As far as the rifle or carbine is concerned the chambering is probably best described as 45-70 or as I prefer 45 Guvmint. Like you I find the variations of a few of the 45 (and 50) caliber cartridges fascinating and confusing when two or more cartridges share very similar overall dimensions or may be chambered in the same rifle. I believe a similar practice was used with the Trapdoor. The confusion continues when modern weapons in 45-70 (and 45 Colt comes to mind) will safely chamber cartridges capable of pressures and velocities likely not imagined 153 years ago.
I was disappointed to discover during a recent safe dive a Hotchkiss has yet to follow me home. Perhaps I may need to be more proactive in this area.
Mike
I recently bought my first Springfields. One is a beautiful trapdoor rifle from 1878 and the other is a Military 22 training rifle used during WW II.
March 31, 2009
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TXGunNut said
I seem to recall 45 caliber was sometimes expressed as 45/100 as in 45 100ths of an inch. For me in a military rifle of that era that would mean 45-70 or 45 Guvmint.
Mike
Mike, I think this is the best explanation. The 100 has nothing to do with the powder charge. It is the fraction for a 45 cal bullet.
March 31, 2009
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OK, here is some more information on the rifle I am looking at. It is not a Musket. It is a rifle with a 32″ barrel. The standard barrel length is 26″. The 32″ barrel must have been robbed from a 1st or 2nd Model Musket? The 3rd Model musket has a 28″ barrel. It letters as a round 26″ barrel.
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