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Another strange GunBroker listing: http://www.gunbroker.com/item/588750802
Seller claims rifle was sent back and barrel shortened, but then states it was re-bored to the same caliber? The barrel itself is marked 32-40 on top and also under the forearm. Is anyone familiar with the REBORE markings shown in photo 15? Would the factory re-bore a rifle to the same original caliber and, if so, why?
Also, the rifle was made in 1892 but has the oval WP stamp on the receiver and barrel which seems to indicate it was returned to Winchester post 1905.
"This is the West, sir. When the legend becomes fact, print the legend."
I have one marked like that.The barrel was cut about 1 1/2 inches to get rid of the original caliber mark that is why the extra dovetails for the mainspring and forearm hanger.J.P.Parker was a gunsmith for Winchester.
The original caliber was smaller,mine was rebored to 25 rimfire from 22.
Very interesting explanation. So it looks like this particular barrel has been cut back at both ends and probably was something smaller than a 32-40 originally. I’m guessing then that the proof marks mean the work was done after 1905 and Winchester re-proofed the barrel after shortening and re-boring it.
"This is the West, sir. When the legend becomes fact, print the legend."
Online
I am quite familiar with the “REBORE” marking found on that barrel, and it is a factory reworked barrel. However, it may not be original to that rifle. If the records at Cody show that there was an R&R for serial number 51665 after July of 1905, and that the associated work order number for the R&R was 28823, then it is a genuine rifle. If there is no R&R listed, the odds of the rifle being original are significantly lower.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
I’ve got one with a REBORE, RECHAMBER and REFINISHED on the same barrel
Beat that 🙂
Mike,
Is that a loose barrel, or an entire rifle?
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
I asked the seller if he had a Cody letter or a worksheet and he said no. He also did not show any interest in getting one even knowing that it would make a definite difference in the value of the rifle, so I will assume that he already knows about the originality of things here. That being said Bert, how would you value the rifle if it was original verses if the barrel is not original?? Thanks, Peter
Peter,
I am going to make the assumption that it will not letter with an R&R showing the work order number on the bottom of the barrel. Further, the barrel is not marked “REFINISH”, and that rifle has most definitely been refinished. Originally, it would have had a case color finished Receiver frame, lever, etc.
So, with a questionable cut-down barrel, and refinished, in a common caliber, plain Jane rifle, I would not consider it a good buy unless the price was < $1,400. The opening bid price is too high in my opinion.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Thanks for that Bert. Seems like there is always something to learn here. Peter
Bert, Is there a serial # range in the 1885’s that would determine whether it should be case colored or blued? What determines that. I’m thinking about buying one of these, so better bone up. Thanks, Peter
Peter,
Winchester issued a Change of Manufacture Notice in August of 1901 to cease using case color finishing as a standard finish. That notice changed the Model 1885, Model 1886, and Model 1890 production, as they were the remaining three models still using it (the Model 1887 was discontinued in 1899). Based on my personal observations, Winchester began bluing the Model 1885 very late in the year 1900. The serial number range for when bluing became standard for the Model 1885 was approximately 86700 – 90200. In this range, many of the ledger entries will have “CH” in the remarks column.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Eagle said
Thanks Bert, I will assume that “CH” would mean Case Hardened? Peter
Yes it does. From my observations, Winchester only used that notation in the Model 1885 ledger records for a short period of time.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Bert H.
What is the difference, if any, between a “Re-Bored” barrel and a “Re-Rifled” barrel? The only Winchester Model 1885 I have left in my collection of Winchesters was sent to Stevens Firearms in Massachusetts at the time Pope was employed by them. The rifle’s barrel was both shortened and “Re_Rifled” by Pope (Stevens) and is so stamped on the original Winchester barrel. This Low Wall, 32/20 WCF is one of the most accurate I’ve ever owned, but if one was to look down the barrel at the bore, you’d have to call the Para Medics to resessitate the looker, the rifling is that strange. Bert, does the fact that Stevens (Pope) and not Winchester did the “Re-Rifling” dramaticaly effect (lower) the value of this firearm in your opinion?
Apache (YaTaHeyKola)
apache said
Bert H.What is the difference, if any, between a “Re-Bored” barrel and a “Re-Rifled” barrel? The only Winchester Model 1885 I have left in my collection of Winchesters was sent to Stevens Firearms in Massachusetts at the time Pope was employed by them. The rifle’s barrel was both shortened and “Re_Rifled” by Pope (Stevens) and is so stamped on the original Winchester barrel. This Low Wall, 32/20 WCF is one of the most accurate I’ve ever owned, but if one was to look down the barrel at the bore, you’d have to call the Para Medics to resessitate the looker, the rifling is that strange. Bert, does the fact that Stevens (Pope) and not Winchester did the “Re-Rifling” dramaticaly effect (lower) the value of this firearm in your opinion?
Apache (YaTaHeyKola)
Larry,
I suspect that the only difference is the company/person who used those terms. In this case, Winchester used “REBORE” whereas Stevens used “RE RIFLED”.
In answer to your second question, Yes (In my personal opinion), a Winchester firearm that has been reworked by someone other than Winchester does dramatically reduce the “collector” value.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
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