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Discussion on whether “butterfly” marking or wear from long term movement of saddle rings on Carbines being desirable (or not) came up in another thread recently. Rather than take that thread off topic, I thought more discussion may be beneficial here, especially for newer collectors.
So what’s your preference? Do you prefer High Condition Winchesters showing little use or wear at all or examples in decent mechanical and overall condition however showing they’ve “been around a while and used”. In my opinion, the below “73” Carbine is a good example of the latter.
Winchester Model 1873 44-40 circa 1886
Kevin,
For me, it just depends on the firearm. If it’s an older more rare item, then honest wear is fine for me, otherwise, I like higher condition. Just my preference.
Al
These days, anything can be faked, I suppose, but the appearance of wear caused by a saddle ring on the receiver of a Winchester with original finish has such a distinctive look about it that it is a hallmark of originality. Not to say one could not professionally refinish a firearm and replicate this pattern of wear, but, if even ever attempted, I should think it would be an uncommon occurrence.
mrcvs said
These days, anything can be faked, I suppose, but the appearance of wear caused by a saddle ring on the receiver of a Winchester with original finish has such a distinctive look about it that it is a hallmark of originality. Not to say one could not professionally refinish a firearm and replicate this pattern of wear, but, if even ever attempted, I should think it would be an uncommon occurrence.
Good points, regarding the butterfly markings.
In general, do you usually prefer high condition or pieces with ‘honest wear’ for your collection?
Winchester Model 1873 44-40 circa 1886
tionesta1 said
Kevin,For me, it just depends on the firearm. If it’s an older more rare item, then honest wear is fine for me, otherwise, I like higher condition. Just my preference.
Al
That’s pretty much sums it up for me as well, even though I did purchase the 73 Carbine in the opening post which I would describe as honest wear.
It’s seems hard to find a Carbine in high condition unless you are willing to pay A LOT of $$$ for it.
Winchester Model 1873 44-40 circa 1886
Kevin Jones said
That’s pretty much sums it up for me as well, even though I did purchase the 73 Carbine in the opening post which I would describe as honest wear.
It’s seems hard to find a Carbine in high condition unless you are willing to pay A LOT of $$$ for it.
That’s a great looking 73 carbine, and looks to be in very good condition compared to most 73 carbines you see.
Here is one of mine with in fairly high condition with a good butterfly pattern. I would say you would need one that never was carried to not have some form of wear pattern on it. Even if you wrapped the ring with leather or something it would of worn the blue.
Bob
WACA Life Member--- NRA Life Member---- Cody Firearms member since 1991 Researching the Winchester 1873's
Email: [email protected]
I recall seeing a leather thong on saddle rings sometimes.
If there was a leather thong on one, it probably wouldn’t get the butterfly pattern.
Kevin Jones said
Good points, regarding the butterfly markings.
In general, do you usually prefer high condition or pieces with ‘honest wear’ for your collection?
Honest wear gets my thumbs up. Too many pieces these days have been faked with intent to deceive, and there is ALWAYS the risk, even with a skilled eye, of paying a significant amount of money for a piece that has been faked to appear high condition and 100 percent factory original.
Even with leather you are going to get wear but it will take longer. You would have keep the ring from moving and if the leather was left in contact with the metal long enough you might get some rust under it.
The reason you see leather on them is to eliminate the noise while hunting.
Bob
WACA Life Member--- NRA Life Member---- Cody Firearms member since 1991 Researching the Winchester 1873's
Email: [email protected]
Kevin Jones said
Discussion on whether “butterfly” marking or wear from long term movement of saddle rings on Carbines being desirable (or not) came up in another thread recently. Rather than take that thread off topic, I thought more discussion may be beneficial here, especially for newer collectors.So what’s your preference? Do you prefer High Condition Winchesters showing little use or wear at all or examples in decent mechanical and overall condition however showing they’ve “been around a while and used”. In my opinion, the below “73” Carbine is a good example of the latter.
Kevin,
Going through the collector process, starting 5 years ago, I began with the 70% range, then found ( with difficulty selling those at breakeven ) I wanted to go to the 90%+ and did so, with some 85% depending on condition and rarity. Now, I have my high percentage collector guns plus many shooters ( under $2k ) that I enjoy using, especially the lessor preferred calibers if ammo is available. It’s fun to go through the process to get a rare or high condition gun to fill in the collection. It is especially fun to get a 100+ year old gun ( antique preferred ) and go out and enjoy it.
Having followed the Forum religiously, I now focus on the gun and it’s variations talked about here and play around with it ( working on it ) and really get pulled in to what the advanced masters around the Forum talk about. Hands-on is really fun and learning to appreciate how these guns were made and evolved.
Bill
November 7, 2015
Offline
I have a few “high condition” guns from the 1950’s and my post-64’s are generally 95% or better but when it comes to my 100 yr old “shooters” most are 60-70% guns. They are all in good working condition or sitting at the gunsmith’s shop awaiting repairs. I figure I can afford a few very good collectibles or a few dozen varied “shooters”. A wide variety of guns allows me to experience and exhibit more of the Winchester story.
Blueliner said
Kevin,
Going through the collector process, starting 5 years ago, I began with the 70% range, then found ( with difficulty selling those at breakeven ) I wanted to go to the 90%+ and did so, with some 85% depending on condition and rarity. Now, I have my high percentage collector guns plus many shooters ( under $2k ) that I enjoy using, especially the lessor preferred calibers if ammo is available. It’s fun to go through the process to get a rare or high condition gun to fill in the collection. It is especially fun to get a 100+ year old gun ( antique preferred ) and go out and enjoy it.
Having followed the Forum religiously, I now focus on the gun and it’s variations talked about here and play around with it ( working on it ) and really get pulled in to what the advanced masters around the Forum talk about. Hands-on is really fun and learning to appreciate how these guns were made and evolved.
Bill
Bill, sounds like you have the right idea in obtaining enjoyment from all levels of the Winchester collecting experience.
Thanks for the help you have been giving me.
Winchester Model 1873 44-40 circa 1886
TXGunNut said
I have a few “high condition” guns from the 1950’s and my post-64’s are generally 95% or better but when it comes to my 100 yr old “shooters” most are 60-70% guns. They are all in good working condition or sitting at the gunsmith’s shop awaiting repairs. I figure I can afford a few very good collectibles or a few dozen varied “shooters”. A wide variety of guns allows me to experience and exhibit more of the Winchester story.
Great point.
There’s no right or wrong preference, only the preference that’s provides the individual collector the most enjoyment.
Winchester Model 1873 44-40 circa 1886
Kevin,
Your taste will evolve over time in this paradox called Winchester collecting….For me, it started with just 94’s…..Then to 86’s….But after 5-7 years of going back and forth i fell in love with 73’s! Now i look for guns that are more on the rarer side then condition. Although, rarity prices can and do reach condition prices. And of course, there will always be the one that got away or “damn i wish i wouldn’t have gotten rid of that” guns.
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