Avatar
Search
Forum Scope




Match



Forum Options



Minimum search word length is 3 characters - maximum search word length is 84 characters
Lost password?
sp_Feed sp_PrintTopic sp_TopicIcon
help needed with old style hunting with 1885 and 1886 models
sp_NewTopic Add Topic
Avatar
Member
WACA Guest
Forum Posts: 36
Member Since:
September 16, 2019
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
1
August 31, 2020 - 7:12 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Hi everybody,

I love Winchesters (well – of course!!) and I am also very interested in hunting. Unfortunately you can not hunt with black powder in Germany so my interest has to remain of theoretical nature….

However, I wonder a few things I could find no satisfying answers for so far:

-Back then, in the 1880s and 1890s, what would have been an adequate maximum range for hunting big game such as moose, bison etc. with a .45-70 in, let’s say, 500 grs? What was considered short, mid and long range? And how did those leoads perform on each? Today you often read that the modern smokeless .45-70 is a good short range ammo… How short must the range have been back then to effectively put a bison or moose down using just black powder?

-When did the first smokeless .45-70s appear? The first 1886 models with nickel steel came up around 1895, right?

-Was the 1885 High Wall available in the famous .45-2 7/8 cartridge? So far I have found only .45-120 in Venturinos book, but the .45-2 7/8 was the .45-110, right?

Would be great if you guys could help me shed some light on those matters for me….

thank you very much and stay healthy everybody!

Avatar
Kingston, WA
Admin
Forum Posts: 10827
Member Since:
April 15, 2005
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
2
August 31, 2020 - 9:35 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

The Model 1885 Single Shot Rifle was available in a substantial number of the old Sharps cartridges as follows;

Cartridge/Caliber No. Made
40-50 Sharps Bottle Neck 21
40-50 Sharps Straight 42
40-70 Sharps Bottle Neck 6
40-70 Sharps Straight 1,428
40-90 Sharps Bottle Neck 2
40-90 Sharps Straight 743
45 Sharps 2 4/10″ 8
45 Sharps 2 6/10″ 24
45 Sharps 2 ¾” 4
45 Sharps 2 ⅞” 47
45 Sharps 3 ¼” 30
50-90 Sharps 3
50 Sharps 3 ¼” 2
   
Total 2,360

In regards to the original 45-70 405-gr Black Power load, it would cleanly kill Bison (Buffalo) or Moose out as far as the shooter could accurately shoot it.

WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
High-walls-1-002-C-reduced2.jpg

Avatar
Northern edge of the D/FW Metromess
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 5018
Member Since:
November 7, 2015
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
3
September 1, 2020 - 12:38 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Folks who write that the 45-70 is a short range round are either very poor at range estimation or are using the wrong ammo. A properly launched lead bullet of a suitable weight and profile is stable well past 500 yards and sometimes past 1000 yards. The only problem is a rainbow trajectory that makes accurate range estimation crucial. 

 

Mike

Life Member TSRA, Endowment Member NRA
BBHC Member, TGCA Member
Smokeless powder is a passing fad! -Steve Garbe
I hate rude behavior in a man. I won't tolerate it. -Woodrow F. Call, Lonesome Dove
Some of my favorite recipes start out with a handful of depleted counterbalance devices.-TXGunNut
Presbyopia be damned, I'm going to shoot this thing! -TXGunNut
Avatar
NY
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 6357
Member Since:
November 1, 2013
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
4
September 1, 2020 - 3:08 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

TXGunNut said
A properly launched lead bullet of a suitable weight and profile is stable well past 500 yards and sometimes past 1000 yards. The only problem is a rainbow trajectory that makes accurate range estimation crucial. 
 

The Buffington rear sight on M1898 Trapdoors was graduated to 2000 yds!  Naturally this wasn’t for aiming at individual human targets, but for officer-directed fire at massed bodies of troops, camps, supply dumps, etc. 

Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 4596
Member Since:
March 31, 2009
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
5
September 1, 2020 - 10:03 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

F.K. said
Hi everybody,

I love Winchesters (well – of course!!) and I am also very interested in hunting. Unfortunately you can not hunt with black powder in Germany so my interest has to remain of theoretical nature….

However, I wonder a few things I could find no satisfying answers for so far:

-Back then, in the 1880s and 1890s, what would have been an adequate maximum range for hunting big game such as moose, bison etc. with a .45-70 in, let’s say, 500 grs? What was considered short, mid and long range? And how did those leoads perform on each? Today you often read that the modern smokeless .45-70 is a good short range ammo… How short must the range have been back then to effectively put a bison or moose down using just black powder?

-When did the first smokeless .45-70s appear? The first 1886 models with nickel steel came up around 1895, right?

-Was the 1885 High Wall available in the famous .45-2 7/8 cartridge? So far I have found only .45-120 in Venturinos book, but the .45-2 7/8 was the .45-110, right?

Would be great if you guys could help me shed some light on those matters for me….

thank you very much and stay healthy everybody!  

Load it with smokeless powder. There are safe loads if you gun is in very good shape.  You can also buy new ammo but beware of the FPS/pressure.

Avatar
Canada
Member
WACA Guest
Forum Posts: 83
Member Since:
April 7, 2020
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
6
September 2, 2020 - 1:02 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

I feel like this is a tricky question. I have done alot of research on the 40-82, as my 86 is chambered for it. 

Long story short it was the first ever long range express cartridge and it was made to hunt elk at long ranges… but what was long range. These days a 1mile shot isn’t impossible. 

Back in the day was it 100 yards which is still far… 100 yards no drop maybe? I  dont know. its a tough question. 

Avatar
NY
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 6357
Member Since:
November 1, 2013
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
7
September 2, 2020 - 1:33 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Kev18 said

Back in the day was it 100 yards which is still far… 100 yards no drop maybe? I  dont know. its a tough question.   

If 100 yrs was considered “far,” would you find BP sights graduated in hundreds of yds.?  The short-range express sight had a 200 yd leaf, & the long-range 4-leaf sight was graduated to 800 yds.  I’ve read that pro buff hunters generally tried to take a “stand” at about 200 yds, so as not to stampede the herd.  Billy Dixon’s famous shot was measured at over 1500 yds.

Of course, shooters who could estimate range accurately enough to make good use of such long range rights were not numerous.

Avatar
Northern edge of the D/FW Metromess
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 5018
Member Since:
November 7, 2015
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
8
September 2, 2020 - 2:03 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Not a Winchester but another notable single-shot in 45-90 with the sights adjusted for an 1123 yard shot. This sight is similar to sights used “back in the day” and those cases are full of “Holy Black”. Notice I didn’t use all the elevation available on this sight.

 

Mike

 

9ABFA549-8EEF-4F7D-9C84-A84C94D46B4A.jpegImage Enlarger

Life Member TSRA, Endowment Member NRA
BBHC Member, TGCA Member
Smokeless powder is a passing fad! -Steve Garbe
I hate rude behavior in a man. I won't tolerate it. -Woodrow F. Call, Lonesome Dove
Some of my favorite recipes start out with a handful of depleted counterbalance devices.-TXGunNut
Presbyopia be damned, I'm going to shoot this thing! -TXGunNut
Avatar
Kingston, WA
Admin
Forum Posts: 10827
Member Since:
April 15, 2005
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
9
September 2, 2020 - 2:35 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

As a point of interest, some of you might find this old article an interesting read;

Original Story by Mike Venturino
Shotgun News April 2000

One topic about which there is more legend, speculation, and pure folly written is the long range shooting done by the buffalo hunters of the 1870’s. It has often been written that they regularly shot buffalo at enormous distances; such as out to 1000 yards or more. But perhaps the most controversial shot ever made was supposed to have been the one fired by young buffalo hunter Billy Dixon during the famous Battle of Adobe Walls in June 1874.

It was there that Dixon allegedly knocked an Indian warrior from his horse with a single shot at what was later surveyed to be 1538 yards. Dixon himself said it was simply a lucky shot, while others have said that the event never happened at all, or that the hapless Indian was on a much closer butte about 700 to 800 yards distant. Regardless the Billy Dixon Shot” has been discussed and debated now for well over 100 years.

Whether is actually happened or not, or exactly how far away the target was, is pretty much a matter of indifference to me. The whole affair is encased in the “fog of history” and cannot be proved or disproved to total satisfaction. But I am grateful that the controversy exists because it allowed me to participate in the most fascinating scientific shooting test ever performed.

Here is the story. In the fall of 1992, the people at Shiloh Rifle Manufacturing, makers of the beautiful Sharps Model 1874 reproductions, were approached by a group of forensic scientist who were going to have a meeting early in November at the government’s Yuma Proving Grounds in Arizona. During the get-together these scientist were going to be allowed to use some recently de-classified radar device to test the performances of various types of ammunition. This new radar apparatus could actually track a single bullet in flight from the time it exited a firearm’s muzzle until it hit the ground.

Most specifically, Shiloh Rifle Manufacturing was asked to bring a rifle chambered for the .50-90 Sharps cartridge. I was invited to travel to Yuma with Kirk Bryan, one of Shiloh’s owners, and during the long drive down from Montana we speculated about why the forensic scientists asked especially for us to bring a Sharps .50-90. Furthermore we wondered why anyone would care about using such state of the art electronic equipment on a black powder cartridge rifle.

Once there, we learned why. One of the scientists had written an article in their newsletter stating that Billy Dixon could not possibly have knocked an Indian warrior off his horse at 1538 yards. According to this scientist’s calculations, a Sharps .50-90 (the rifle and caliber that Billy Dixon supposedly used) couldn’t heave a bullet that far. My first thoughts were, “Well, this fellow is going to be awfully embarrassed. Anyone who has played around with these rifles knows that a Sharps will shoot that far.” But, I kept my mouth shut and waited for the electronic wizardry to give its opinion.

Things got interesting quickly. We were given photo ID badges, and warned not to take photos of anything, not to even take cameras out of the vehicle. (A picture of row upon row of Russian T-72 tanks would have been impressive!) Anyway, for testing the Sharps .50-90 was mounted in a special gun carrier with the radar set behind it. I would have loved to be able to show you a photo of an old side-hammer Sharps mounted in a gun carrier big enough to hold tank cannons, but as I said cameras were not allowed.

For the first shot with the Sharps the gun carrier was elevated to 35 degrees, and a round carrying a 675-grain bullet over 90 grains of FFg black powder touched off. All of the scientists running the equipment started stuttering and stammering in front of their screens. Collectively, they were saying, “It couldn’t be! It couldn’t be!” What they couldn’t accept was that the big .50 caliber Sharps bullet started out at only 1216 fps had landed more than 3600 yards downrange.

Several technicians muttered, “Shoot another one. Something must be not working right. “This time the bullet weighed 650 grains and the 90-grain powder charge gave it a muzzle velocity of 1301 fps. With that 35-degree muzzle angel this bullet impacted at 3,245 yards. At this point the scientist who wrote the article saying Billy Dixon’s gun wouldn’t put a bullet out as far as 1,538 yards got very quiet and very red faced.

From there on it was all fun. For the next shot the muzzle was elevated to 45 degrees, and another 650-grain bullet fired. This one started out at 1,275 fps, and landed 3,190 yards downrange. However, even more amazing was that this projectile topped 4000 feet in elevation, and was in the air a full 30 seconds!

Another scientist at this gathering then began to do some tapping on his laptop computer using the data accumulated so far. After a few minutes he said, “Elevate the muzzle to 4.5 or 5.0 degrees and you’ll get a Billy Dixon shot.” That was done with the same load and the bullet landed 1,517 yards away. Incidentally, five degrees of muzzle elevation can easily be gotten with on the rear barrel sight on a 30 inch barreled Shiloh Sharps.

Knowing what sort of .50-90 factory ammo Sharps produced in 1874 (450-grain grease groove bullets and 473-grain paper patch) I had brought some .50-90 rounds loaded with 450-grain grease groove bullets over 100 grain of FFg. This load started out at an impressive 1406 fps, but with the muzzle elevated to 35 degrees, the lighter bullet only went to 2,585 yards.

At this point the forensic scientists were getting into the swing of things and asked us what other rifles we had along. So, next we mounted up a Sharps .45-110 which incidentally is the caliber used by Tom Selleck in the movie, “Quigley Down Under,” Load for it was 550-grain bullet over 100 grains of FFg, and muzzle velocity was 1322 fps. With the 35-degree muzzle angle that bullet landed 3,575 yards downrange.

For the next shot, the muzzle was dropped to five degrees and the bullet, starting at 1,361 fps, landed at 1430 yards. Interestingly, when it hit the ground the electronic equipment said it was still moving at 669 fps.

This group of scientists generally agreed that any projectile from a BB on up needs about 300 fps velocity to inflict a possibly lethal wound. Those .50 caliber Sharps bullets fired at 35 to 45 degrees were coming almost straight down at impact but were still going 350 to 400 fps. In other words they were still deadly out at 3500 yards.

Now, it is easy to say, “Well sure a Sharps can heave a big chunk of lead out to impressive distances, but just how accurate can they be at long range?” After all, it is easy to reason that black powder is a primitive propellant, and cast bullets certainly are inferior to modern factory made jacketed projectiles. Let’s not forget also that the rifles are carrying only “iron sights”.

Perhaps I would not be able to give an opinion based on actual shooting myself, if not for the help of country/western singer Hank William Jr. In the beautiful Big Hole Valley of Montana, Hank has a sizeable ranch, and during one visit there in the early 1990’s I pointed out a spot which I thought would be perfect for hanging a life size steel silhouette of a buffalo. I said, “That hillside has to be at least 600 or 700 yards from the shooting house.”

On my next visit, sure enough, Hank had mounted a steel cut out of a buffalo bull. It stood five feet tall at the hump and was eight feet long from nose to tail. Hank had the distance from the shooting bench to the buffalo” surveyed. It was exactly 956 yards! (So much for my distance guessing ability) Once the range was set up Hank invited me to bring an array of Sharps rifles and do some test shooting.

Among the Sharps rifles used were both original and Shiloh reproductions chambered for .40-70, .45-70 and .45-110 cartridges. All of these rifles had barrel lengths from 30 to 34 inches, and all were equipped with high quality Vernier type, tang mounted peep sights.

The .45-110 was even on of Shiloh Rifle Manufacturing’s “Quigley Models”, an exact duplicate of the one used by Tom Selleck in the above-mentioned movie. All the ammunition fired carried cast bullets poured by myself and straight Goex FFg black powder was the propellant.

On a beautiful, near windless, Montana summer day, Hank and I, along with several onlookers, fired several hundred rounds at his 956 yard steel buffalo. Starting out it was common for both Hank and myself to get three or four hits out of five in a row strikes were not uncommon. One of the first things we noticed was that about five seconds elapsed between the pulling of the Sharps triggers until the “bong” sound of a hit floated back to us!

Then with sight settings noted we began to put some novices behind the butt stocks of these big Sharps rifles; people who had never before fired such a gun. One fellow needed only one sighter, and then hit the buffalo six rounds running.

A couple of the ladies observing our antics then asked to shoot. They required a couple of practice shots and then were running strings of four and five hits themselves. One even commented that they didn’t see why we men folk were having so much fun. She said that hitting “that thing” seemed awfully easy.

And, that’s pretty much the gist of it. Those big side hammer Sharps rifles used by the majority of buffalo hunters in the 1870’s were capable of both impressive accuracy and long range. Whether or not buffalo hunters actually did engage in very much long range shooting we will never know for sure.

I personally don’t think so. They were businessman, not plinkers, and didn’t waste valuable powder, primers, and lead, all which had to be hauled to the buffalo prairie by wagon. But, their rifles were certainly capable of such shooting if the people behind the trigger had the ability to do so themselves.

I believe that this should end any arguments about black powder cartridges being “short range” only!

Bert

WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
High-walls-1-002-C-reduced2.jpg

Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 1723
Member Since:
September 22, 2011
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
10
September 2, 2020 - 12:53 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

I have a Sharps 1863 Cartridge Conversion in .50-70 Government.  I fired some black powder rounds at 50 yards and never hit the target.  Then tried 20 yards and it hit high.  This is with the sight at the lowest setting.  I then fired it at 100 yards at a target about 1 1/2 feet high and it hit a cable supporting this target maybe 1 1/2 feet higher or more.  I don’t have anywhere to fire it further but it would be interesting to find where it is sighted to, maybe 200 or 300 yards.  Maybe more, as I think at 100 yards it is still climbing.

Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 400
Member Since:
November 8, 2011
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
11
September 2, 2020 - 2:51 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

I’ve seen Bat Masterson on the old TV series make shots over and over at over a half mile. 

Avatar
Northwestern Ontario
Member
WACA Guest
Forum Posts: 298
Member Since:
December 14, 2009
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
12
September 2, 2020 - 3:46 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_EditHistory sp_QuotePost

Clint Eastwood as ” The Good” shot the noose rope from “The Ugly” at what looks like 400 yards while shooting a Henry .44 RF while sitting on a horse in the spagetti western “The Good, Bad and the Ugly”. Seriously though I imagine that the buffalo market hunters wounded many more animals than those that they killed outright with a proper placed kill to the heart / lung area. I imagine that they used their ammo carefully but the wounding of an animal was of little consequence since the herds were so large and they had killed the matriarch the rest of the herd stood around leaderless and even the ones they wounded were easy pickings. The Indians had good reason to hate those buffalo hunters. I was at the Adobe Wells site last year and it is not surprising the the Indians had no chance of launching a surprise attack in that flat barren plains. 

Avatar
NY
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 6357
Member Since:
November 1, 2013
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
13
September 2, 2020 - 5:00 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Dave K. said
Seriously though I imagine that the buffalo market hunters wounded many more animals than those that they killed outright with a proper placed kill to the heart / lung area. I imagine that they used their ammo carefully but the wounding of an animal was of little consequence since the herds were so large and they had killed the matriarch the rest of the herd stood around leaderless and even the ones they wounded were easy pickings.

Of course–& the wounded buffs obliged them by standing still until they bled to death, or were too weak to run away.  Main objective of the hunter was to avoid spooking the herd.

Zane Grey’s Thundering Herd provides an accurate account of the business of buff hunting that’s impossible to forget–esp. the “red calves” left to the mercy of the wolves.  The characters in it are of course fictional, but based very closely on his conversations with pro buff hunters still living at that time.

Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 4596
Member Since:
March 31, 2009
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
14
September 2, 2020 - 5:43 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_EditHistory sp_QuotePost

Kev18 said
I feel like this is a tricky question. I have done alot of research on the 40-82, as my 86 is chambered for it. 

Long story short it was the first ever long range express cartridge and it was made to hunt elk at long ranges… but what was long range. These days a 1mile shot isn’t impossible. 

Back in the day was it 100 yards which is still far… 100 yards no drop maybe? I  dont know. its a tough question.   

Kev, 2 miles isn’t impossible.  In about 2017 a Canadian sniper hit his live target at over 2 miles.  I don’t know what the target record is now but over 2 miles.  Hits have been made at 3 miles.

Avatar
Northwestern Ontario
Member
WACA Guest
Forum Posts: 298
Member Since:
December 14, 2009
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
15
September 2, 2020 - 7:25 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_EditHistory sp_QuotePost

clarence said

Dave K. said
Seriously though I imagine that the buffalo market hunters wounded many more animals than those that they killed outright with a proper placed kill to the heart / lung area. I imagine that they used their ammo carefully but the wounding of an animal was of little consequence since the herds were so large and they had killed the matriarch the rest of the herd stood around leaderless and even the ones they wounded were easy pickings.

Of course–& the wounded buffs obliged them by standing still until they bled to death, or were too weak to run away.  Main objective of the hunter was to avoid spooking the herd.

Zane Grey’s Thundering Herd provides an accurate account of the business of buff hunting that’s impossible to forget–esp. the “red calves” left to the mercy of the wolves.  The characters in it are of course fictional, but based very closely on his conversations with pro buff hunters still living at that time.  

clarence said

Dave K. said
Seriously though I imagine that the buffalo market hunters wounded many more animals than those that they killed outright with a proper placed kill to the heart / lung area. I imagine that they used their ammo carefully but the wounding of an animal was of little consequence since the herds were so large and they had killed the matriarch the rest of the herd stood around leaderless and even the ones they wounded were easy pickings.

Of course–& the wounded buffs obliged them by standing still until they bled to death, or were too weak to run away.  Main objective of the hunter was to avoid spooking the herd.

Zane Grey’s Thundering Herd provides an accurate account of the business of buff hunting that’s impossible to forget–esp. the “red calves” left to the mercy of the wolves.  The characters in it are of course fictional, but based very closely on his conversations with pro buff hunters still living at that time.  

Definitely a sad time in North American history in retospect. To kill the herds was government policy so as to force the nomadic Indians onto reserves so they could be fed domestic cattle.

Avatar
Northern edge of the D/FW Metromess
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 5018
Member Since:
November 7, 2015
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
16
September 8, 2020 - 3:39 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Just to clear something up about bullet drop; a bullet begins to drop below the line of the bore the instant it leaves the muzzle. Simple physics and gravity. A bullet will sometimes cross the shooter’s line of sight at what appears to be an upward angle but in reality the line of sight is crossing the line of the bore and the path of the bullet at a downward angle to accommodate the drop of the bullet. The important thing is that the bullet’s path and the line of sight intersect at or very near the target. If you’ll look at the picture of my rifle and visualize a line from the rear aperture to the front sight you’ll notice that line and the line of the bore are very different.

A bullet can not rise above the line of the bore on it’s own. Myths about bullet “rise” make it hard to understand bullet trajectory. 

I learned about the time lapse MLV described while shooting the Whittington Center buffalo at 1123 yards. A bystander on a later trip offered to spot for me but I thanked him and told him it wouldn’t be necessary. I’d simply fire the shot, set down the rifle and wait for the bullet to hit while watching through the spotting scope. It took over two seconds for the 45-90 bullet to arrive at the target. A bit over two seconds later a “bong” would confirm the hit.

 

Mike

Life Member TSRA, Endowment Member NRA
BBHC Member, TGCA Member
Smokeless powder is a passing fad! -Steve Garbe
I hate rude behavior in a man. I won't tolerate it. -Woodrow F. Call, Lonesome Dove
Some of my favorite recipes start out with a handful of depleted counterbalance devices.-TXGunNut
Presbyopia be damned, I'm going to shoot this thing! -TXGunNut
Forum Timezone: UTC 0
Most Users Ever Online: 778
Currently Online: [email protected], freebird1968
Guest(s) 157
Currently Browsing this Page:
1 Guest(s)
Top Posters:
clarence: 6357
TXGunNut: 5018
Chuck: 4596
1873man: 4319
steve004: 4246
Big Larry: 2339
twobit: 2293
mrcvs: 1723
TR: 1722
Forum Stats:
Groups: 1
Forums: 17
Topics: 12743
Posts: 110989

 

Member Stats:
Guest Posters: 1763
Members: 8845
Moderators: 4
Admins: 3
Navigation