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January 9, 2023
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I recently came into contact with a Pre-64 Model 70 Super Grade in 30 WCF!? While this isn’t the first time I’ve been able to handle a rare, experimental model 70, about 2 years ago I was fortunate enough to handle a Model 70 Standard in 405 WCF, which was really cool! So my question is does anyone have any kind of info at all in regard to a Super Grade in 30 WCF? I’ve been through Rule and Whittakers books both and neither one have anything on it, the closest thing is in rules book, that they chambered the Model 54 for 30 WCF. Thanks for any info anyone provides!!
August 27, 2014
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Hello Isaiah,
Was there any factory provenance accompanying the guns? In the absence of documentation it would be difficult to label them as rare, experimental guns. Uncatalogued caliber and configuration M70’s have recently been discussed in several threads on these forums.
My takeaway from these discussions is that if you plan to buy such a gun, Caveat Emptor
Ted
“If you can’t convince them, confuse them”
President Harry S. Truman
November 5, 2014
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Hi Isaiah-
Color me skeptical (in general)… 
First off… There are no existing factory records from any period of pre-64 M70 manufacture that can document style/chambering by serial number. I wish there were, but there aren’t… So without some kind of believable provenance, like a receipt from the factory R&D vault or solid record of ownership from day one, all M70s in “uncataloged chamberings” are, at best, “real” in the eye of the beholder. This is as true of guns I own as it is of any others…
Second… Winchester offered via their catalogs a fair number of special order options. In this vein, rifles in CATALOGED chamberings but uncataloged styles, like National Match rifles in any chambering (except 375 MAGNUM) or Target Models in NRA style standard stocks, were specifically mentioned in the catalog. What was NOT mentioned in any catalog I’ve found, were rifles in any style in an UNCATALOGED chambering. This is not to say that a few such rifles weren’t built, either for eccentric well-to-do clients or as R&D projects, but then we circle back to provenance…
Third… The M54 was cataloged for several years in 30 WCF, just as it was in 7.65 M/M and 9 M/M Mauser. It is likely true, given Winchester’s reluctance to throw anything away, that any leftover M54 barrels in those chamberings were ultimately used to build M70s. But the prevailing opinion (meaning George Madis) was that such rifles were built to “dump” unwanted parts, not as prized “special order” deluxe rifles. So most, if not all, were in Standard Grade….
Fourth… The 30 WCF was particularly unusual in this regard, as the chambering had been dropped from the catalog before the adoption of Winchester Proof Steel (CMS) barrels in 1932, with their integral forged front sight ramps. Factory 30 WCF M54s had Nickel Steel barrels (marked as such) with pinned front sight blades… In other words, Winchester had no reason to make 30 WCF barrels from CMS in the M70 style. Did they make them??? Apparently they did make some, as a few legit ones have been claimed…
Finally… There was, apparently, at least one M70 built in 405 WCF, just as there was at least one M21 double rifle built in that chambering. Those came from the factory R&D department/vault, apparently with documentation. Yet I know of a single individual in PA who has personally owned/sold about (10) “legit” 405 WCF M70s… Either he has/had a direct connection to the factory or something smells funny… You make the call… 
Do you have serial numbers on either the 30 WCF Super Grade or 405 WCF you handled? I’d like to check them against the M70 survey to see if they’ve turned up before. Sadly, it has not been uncommon for today’s 30 WCF Super Grade to have once been recorded as a 30 GOV’T’06 Standard rifle…
Short story is “caveat emptor”. 
M70s are one of the, if not the, most often faked Winchesters and I’ve recorded many more of them in 30 WCF and 405 WCF (etc, etc) that it’s likely the factory ever made…
Just to prove I’m F.O.S… Here’s a 30 WCF Standard rifle… One of mine… Is it “real”??? It’s “provenance” only goes back to 1990… I’d have my doubts… 
Lou
WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters
April 15, 2005
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Lou,
Have you checked (measured) the rifling twist rate? An authentic 30 WCF should have a 1:12 twist rate verus the 1:10 twist used for the 30-06.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
August 8, 2024
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There is one feature that is a dead give a way for a Model 70 to be a fake if it is chambered for a rimmed cartridge. That fella out of Pa. With the .405s has not figured it out yet! Louis knows of this. I have only held one 30 WCF Model 70, and it is the one Louis purchased back in the 1990s. The rifle was on a table at a OGCA show. I also have only held one .405 WCF. Again this was at a early 1990s OGCA show. Interestingly it had a medium heavy barrel. A Standard Grade rifle. Ron’s Gun Shop from East Lyme, Ct had it on his table.
November 5, 2014
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Hi Bert-
Yes… The barrel on that gun has a flat breech and 6 groove rifling with 1 in 12″ twist, not 4 groove with 1 in 10″ twist like the 30-06. The reason that doesn’t give me comfort is that the M54 was regularly made in 30 WCF and the breech/bore specs are well known.
In the interest of FULL disclosure, the stock on the rifle in my photos is not the original. The stock that was on the gun was cut slightly short, albeit still with the metal butt plate, there was a superficially addressed chip behind the bolt handle, and the pistol grip had once been flattened off for a (now absent) grip cap. All fairly subtle issues, but definitely altered from factory. For “display purposes” I put it into an intact early standard stock with similar wear, but of course I’ve still got the original wood…
Hi Bob-
It’s interesting that some of the oddball caliber rifles (7.65 M/M, 9 M/M, and 405 WCF) appear to have been built with the 24-inch medium heavy ramped barrels (same as the M54 Target rifle barrel and the second variation 375 MAGNUM barrel).
I suppose this is plausible (???), since the 7.65 M/M was cataloged in the M54 Target rifle and both the 7.65 M/M and 9 M/M were offered in the M54 “Deluxe Heavy Barrel”, which also used that barrel. So at some point in time Winchester would have made a handful of Target weight barrels in those chamberings… Still… These days I’m not surprised by the “creativity” of the fakers…
I would have liked to have seen the heavy barrel 405 WCF that Ron’s Guns had back then. It has been mentioned in several places as possibly genuine… Next time me meet up you’ll have to quiz me on the fake rimmed cartridge M70 giveaway thing!!!
Lou
WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters
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