Earliest Pre-64 Model 70 "Carbine" by Serial Number?|Winchester Rifles|Forum|Winchester Collector

Model 70’s with 20 in. barrels were catalogued from day1 of production

Hi Dave-

The earliest Carbine serial numbers I’ve got recorded in the combined (mine and Bob Porter’s) M70 survey are:  s/n 55 (30-06), s/n 87 (270 WCF), and s/n 243 (30-06). A little surprising, since most of the first (100) M70s appear to have been built as 30 GOV’T’06 Standard rifles.  Then again, s/n 68 is a legit 30-06 Target rifle…

These are guns observed in the surveys.  There’s no existing “complete list”, i.e. factory record…

Lou

Dave and Bert-

Below is a clip from the “combined/condensed” M70 survey covering the first 100 serial numbers.  Guns recorded by Bob Porter have blue shaded serial numbers, while mine are pink.  Hence there are duplicated entries.  My survey sheet is much more detailed, but this is limited to the information on Bob Porter’s cards.

In any event, we have (29) of the first (100) recorded.  Twenty-eight here, plus I picked up s/n 12 (30 GOV’T’06 Standard rifle) since I last merged the surveys.  It’s clear that most of the first (100) were 30 GOV’T’06 Standard rifles, as has been claimed.  I know s/n 68 is a legit Target Model, as I’ve handled it.  I’ve also seen s/n 19, now a 375 MAGNUM Super Grade, but I don’t know what to think of it.  The first “batch” of H&H receivers shows in in the mid-600’s.  The receiver on s/n 19 looked OK to me (not a modified Standard receiver), and if it was a 375 Magnum it would have been a “pencil barrel”.  It does have the early front swivel position you’d expect on a 1936 Super Grade, but  it’s such an outlier that I’m suspicious…

Short story is that an “observational survey” will never take the place of a factory record, but it does have its uses…

Lou

Interestingly, Today on Guns International there is a Pre War Model 70 Carbine chambered in .375 H&H Mag.  It is claimed to be new, and unfired.  Priced at $11,000.  I was pretty excited when I first saw the carbine, and thought of purchasing same.  Being that is had a pencil barrel I was expecting a very low serial number.  I was concerned when I read that it was in the 30,000 serial range.  At this serial range I would expect to see a .375 Magnum with a medium heavy barrel.  There was no pictures of the under barrel.  Which would give us a few more clues.  After seeing the above I had some concerns, and will pass on the carbine.

Hi triggerhappy-

IIRC s/n 19 had a fair amount of light wear to the stock and at the time I felt that the metal work had been reblued.  I’m pretty sure that it wasn’t a “converted” standard action, as completely milling away the clip slot removes enough extra from the bridge to be noticeable, while keeping the same dimensions doesn’t (quite) get rid of the corners of the clip slot.  Yes… I have seen standard actions that have been converted to H&H length…  What I can’t exclude is that it was a legit H&H action with an expertly altered (low) serial number.  Yes… I’ve seen that too…

So as I said, I really don’t know what to make of the gun except that if genuine it’s a real outlier… If it had been a 30 GOV’T’06 I would not have questioned its authenticity.  It did have the earliest Super Grade stock on it, a feature that changed in early 1938…

Hi Bob-

H&H receivers in the survey tend to show up in discrete serial number batches.  The first concentration of H&H receivers appears to have been made between serial numbers 600 and 700.  When in 375 MAGNUM, those have the “pencil barrel”, and most of the “pencil barrel” 375 MAGNUMs in the survey (legit ot not) are serial numbered below 4000.  The next batch of H&H receivers appears in the mid-4000s.  This the first block fitted with 24-inch medium heavy 375 MAGNUM barrels. 

As far as how many legit “pencil barrel” 375 MAGNUMs were made and when, as you know Rule said “less than ten” and Whitaker said “less than 100”.  I suspect that Whitaker’s number is closer, as it’s hard for me to imagine that Winchester made the decision to change barrel contour after making only ten guns.  Wouldn’t they have built at least a few more than that for inventory leading up to the release of the Model 70?  But who knows??? 

The one thing I’d bet is that however many “pencil barrel” 375 MAGNUM rifles were made, the number would have been roughly equal to the number of “pencil” barrels Winchester had made before deciding to change.  They never threw anything away!!!

Best,

Lou

Anthony said

Bo Rich said
Interestingly, Today on Guns International there is a Pre War Model 70 Carbine chambered in .375 H&H Mag.  It is claimed to be new, and unfired.  Priced at $11,000.  I was pretty excited when I first saw the carbine, and thought of purchasing same.  Being that is had a pencil barrel I was expecting a very low serial number.  I was concerned when I read that it was in the 30,000 serial range.  At this serial range I would expect to see a .375 Magnum with a medium heavy barrel.  There was no pictures of the under barrel.  Which would give us a few more clues.  After seeing the above I had some concerns, and will pass on the carbine.
  

Bo, 
You’re to smart to be duped into that one, but wise to investigate, as we never 

-Close-up of caliber stamp would be nice

-No pic of the Pat. Date on the face of the pad

-Would expect to see a darker stock on this early of a gun

– Maybe just the lighting/pic, but is that a little horizontal groove that doesn’t belong there along the back half of the front sight ramp?

Perfect example of an uncatalogued caliber/configuration gun

Just gave the gun a closer look, almost certain that’s a horizontal groove that doesn’t belong there on the back half of the front sight ramp.
Also, looks like a bit of welding porosity on the filet of the front sight ramp

Hi triggerhappy-

In the fake trade there are some times when making a “Super Grade” is a disadvantage…  For example, “uncataloged chamberings”…  Conventional Wisdom, meaning George Madis, holds that the few M70s made in 7.65 M/M and 9 M/M were made in Standard Grade, as these were most likely built to get rid of old M54 barrels rather than to cater to the special order whims of wealthy eccentrics…  Building a fake one in Super Grade really begins to “strain credulity” (apologies to Captain Hector Barbosa)…  For many, a Standard Grade Model 70 Carbine in 30 WCF (already impossibly rare and usually fabricated), would be an easier sell that a Super Grade Carbine in 30 WCF (and bring the same money).  Red flags on top of red flags!!!

OTOH… You are exactly right that, for example, a 257 ROBERTS or 22 HORNET Super Grade is worth maybe double what a similar Standard Grade rifle would bring.  Hence the rampant “upgrading” of less common (but cataloged) chamberings at the expense of Super Grade rifles in 30-06 and 270 Winchester…  That’s been going on for time immemorial.  To the point that many people (cynically) consider Super Grades in “common” chamberings to be “rare” guns.  All the original 30-06 Super Grades have been stripped for parts!!! 

Lou