clarence said

antler1 said

I am by no means a defender of Don Grove, but I don’t see the point in comparing realized auction prices to prices he was asking on his web site.  

The point is, that major auctions are NOT known for offering bargains; it may happen rarely for exceptional reasons, like listing so many items bidders run out of money or stamina, but in general anything sold at a major auction brings top dollar for the time & place.  Isn’t that a fact brought up here all the time, when something sells for a jaw-dropping price beyond all explanation? 

  

You hit the bulls eye with that comment Clarence. I agree!

Some very good points offered here and I thank you for taking the time to tear it down and present it to us long time collectors that are interested in the comparisons. If it’s not a true passion then most won’t or can’t understand it.

Thank You,

Anthony

antler1 said
I am by no means a defender of Don Grove, but I don’t see the point in comparing realized auction prices to prices he was asking on his web site. I have never bought from him as I always thought too high but it is not right to compare his asking prices to auction prices. If you don’t like his prices try to negotiate or walk away. Its sellers property and they can ask whatever they want. I believe there were some good buys at Wards auction and none of us know is Don’s estate lost money on his sales

  

Pat is correct in my view – walk away if the deal is not for you. The guns which were sold at Ward’s Auction were the “what was left” of Don’s inventory after he passed away. These guns had been in his inventory for some time, many for a long time – most had been at big guns shows and did not sell there or thru his website. They did not bring big money at the Ward’s auction because they were not worth big money to the auction audience. But, as Pat states, a few buyers may have walked away a great gun at a good price. For those of you who did not know Don or personally deal with him you missed a real character – he loved to haggle and he would always negotiate price. I used to love going to his place at Cannon Beach, drinking his beer, enjoying the ocean view and sitting down to enjoy a barbecued elk steak. My personal and recent experience with auctions is that mediocre guns do not sell for big money and guns which are right and have conditon sell high. As others have stated, Don’s asking price was always high and I do not think we gain anything from comparing a high Grove asking price to an auction price on mediocre guns of which many had problems. Over the last 40+ years, Don may have turned more Winchesters than any dealer, including Leroy Merz. Here is a sample of a Grove gun I bought about 40 years ago – a right as rain 92 carbine in 44 which is 100% original/correct and letters with the pistol grip and rifle butt. Did I pay-up for it – yes I did – but, even back in those days, it was a hard gun to find. If you want good guns, you have to be willing to pay for them.

Folks,  I was reading these comments some time back, had my own thoughts, kept them to myself and passed on to other endeavors.  But, I kept thinking of what has been stated and have circled back to add some of my own thoughts as a collector.  First, I appreciate dealers as they find firearms I have not nor maybe would ever find on my own with limited time to go looking.  I have watched Leroy be bashed for his prices and dumping lower grade guns or those with problems.  Now some are swiping at Don for similar reasons.  No one ever held a gun to my head and made me buy their offerings!  I have several rifles I bought from Don and none were purchased at his original asking price.  I was able to buy rifles from Leroy when stationed overseas and had them shipped to my permanent residence.  I still have many of those and am glad to have them!  I know of no one who buys a collectible Winchester with the aim of losing money–do you?  They provide a service, use it or don’t as you care.  Bashing them for their pricing does no good.  They and others unnamed are in BUSINESS.  If you will let me relate a “war story”.  Dad died some years ago.  The house was where I lived most of my life and was valued  by the assessor for property taxes at $108,000.  At his death the pro appraiser valued it for the estate at  about $80,000 give or take a few.  At the auction of contents we sold the house as well.  My brother and I were concerned at what the auction would bring but the auction company said it will sell for what its worth that day and that place.  It sold for $33,000.  Now–what is that compared to Don’s rifles selling at auction?  The rifles sold at the time and venue and that is all.  
By the way, I have a table at the Greeley show and two at Cody.  I will have a couple or so on the tables, but I’ve none in my collection I care to sell.  If you are looking at buying from me at a steal, don’t even bother coming by.  If you care to come by to talk and be sociable–by all means do so!  Tim.

I’ve had a few deals with Don, and Jan over the years and they were all good, expensive ,yes, by some folks standards, but good, and pieces that I hadn’t seen available elsewhere, and pieces I “needed”, to fill a display I happened to be working on.  Last Cody show I got a nice little “99”, thumb trigger from him and glad to get it, We started out at $1750.00 and it took 2 1/2 days to get to an agreeable price,and a handshake, at $1300.00. I also purchased a 1886 1st. model s.r.c. from Him several years back, He offered to buy it back from Me for more than I paid Him for it, a year or so later. I, like Don, buy sell , trade and collect various Winchesters and have put some pretty awesome displays together over the years, after a while I piece them out , I can’t afford to keep  them all, and start on something different, I love the thrill of the hunt. the people, and the negotiating. Some single pieces I pay large money for, and some, when I buy a whole collection, I get very reasonable,so when it comes time to sell , certainly I like to get My money back or even turn a  profit, so Yes , like Don I suppose My asking prices are high on some pieces and more than reasonable on others, however the big difference between guys like Don/ I, and many other collector/dealers, and  most auction houses is, whatever I and most other guys I know sell , is sold guaranteed as described without question. I’ve only ever had one auction company,(Ward Auctions in Alberta), take back a gun that wasn’t right, and one time I messed up , refusing , at the time,to take a gun back from a fellow member. Any ways I for one will miss Don with His smiling face and His offerings at the shows, He always made Me feel I was doing business with a gentleman.  R.I.P. Don Grove

mrcvs said
I don’t understand why stating what was listed as the asking price on a website and what was the sale price at auction, and a comparison of the two, should be viewed so negatively.  All I can do is compare the two—I’m unable to gauge how much a dealer might knock off the asking price to make a sale.  Although when you have a sales price at auction that is considerably less than 90% or 80% of the asking price at retail sale, it proves strongly that prices are overinflated.  A dealer is likely not inclined to knock more than 10% or, at best, 20% off of a firearm unless he really needs to move it.

Yes, one cal elect to buy from a dealer, or bypass the dealer if one feels prices are too high.  I’m in the latter category, as there’s nothing I have to have at this point in the game.  That’s a huge distinction.  Have to have often leads to overpaying, whereas would like to have leads to much more casual shopping.  I would like to have a .44-40 Model 1892 carbine.  I don’t need it.  I’ll find what I want at the right price, or I don’t.

I will bash dealers just because prices are inflated, as this thread suggests.  Not that they don’t deserve to make a living.  If they can, they remain in business.  If they can’t…they don’t.  It’s much more fun to purchase from a like minded collector, however.  Or purchase at auction where you set the maximum price.  If at or under that, you take the firearm home.  If not, you end up empty handed.

I understand dealers have the costs of attending shows that I don’t have.  My costs are just gas money to attend the nearest antique arms show a few times a year.  I don’t even travel a few hundred miles to the Baltimore show as my understanding is since Covid it’s not nearly as good.  And, if a bargain is to be had, which is debatable to begin with, once you add in the cost of gas, admission, and a hotel room, that firearm is no longer such a bargain.

  

Ian – you have concluded that it is cheaper to buy guns at auction than to buy guns from a dealer – this is simply not the case. At this particular auction the guns had already been picked over and so the interest was minimal. You compared the auction results against Don’s “asking price”, not what you could really buy the guns for. As several have stated in this thread, Don loved to start high and haggle – it worked for him for a long, long time. As Rick Hill noted, Don was not a Winchester collector. Don Collected Ben Franklin’s and it fueled his real passion which was old cars. But he did have an intense interest in the old Winchesters. Here is another example (photo) of a Don Grove gun which I bought long before cell phones or the internet existed – a high condition 94 SRC in 38-55. Back in those days, the only way you found out about good guns for sale, especially for a guy up in Alaska, was to have a good relationship with a few dealers who would let you know when a gun would become available. As I recall the purchase of this carbine, Don called me late one evening and said he had just purchased a small collection of about a dozen guns and there was one I might be interested in – we discussed it and I bought it. I paid $1800 for it and that was too much at the time – but, what is it worth now? If you buy guns that are original, correct, with condition and hang onto them they will treat you right.

Collectors need dealers – that was especially true for me when I was collecting up here in the frozen north and could only make a couple of gun shows per year. I bought a lot of guns from guys like Tommy Rholes, Norm Vagley and David Bichrest. They knew I was a serious buyer and would pay a fair price so when they got something nice they would call me. Did I often pay too much – sure I did but time was on my side and the price of high condition guns has escalated, especially at auction.

mrcvs said

Having said that, when I was much less knowledgeable, I did buy some decent firearms from dealers and certainly paid too much, but now they are worth significantly more than I paid decades ago. 

But you paid for them with dollars worth significantly more then (in purchasing power) they they are today; that fact of economics always seems to get left out of the equation.

Don did offer some amazing guns over the years and I always enjoyed haggling and trading with him.  I was lucky enough to acquire a few from him and they are some of the nicest in my collection.  They weren’t cheap by any means, but since Don loved to trade, it did soften the blow a bit.  He always stood by his word and if you were unhappy, he was always willing to work with you and make it right.  All are in the letterable range, except for the model 1894 in last 3 photos which happens to be the highest condition model 1894 in my collection–serial number 376213 chambered in 25-35 WCF.

Don