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Chuck said
I also believe that there are no totally honest Auction Houses.
Amen, to that–it’s a business, not a social service. And since most auction items are non-returnable (without a lawsuit), it should be their responsibility to go over every item with a fine-toothed comb & absolutely NOT take the consigners word for anything!
When there are a couple of little things that catch your eye when looking at a gun, whether first hand or via photos, that just dont look right or dont register correctly or you have questions, I dont think its wrong to call them out to discuss, Im mean thats what we do in practice when we are considering buying a gun, using our experiences as a guide, right?. Right or wrong, folks offer opinions here, most often as a means to learn, ask questions, or relay a some knowledge, not some hidden agenda to do harm.
Regardless of the type of auction house or what they are selling, the burden falls squarely on their shoulders to vet, to the degree they wish or are capable, and provide a description of what they are representing, and then depict as such in clear and detailed photos. If they cant do that, then they arent doing the seller or the buyer any favors.
In the end, irregardless of any opinions offered to either effect, its up to the buyer or buyers to put on their big boy pants and make their own decision of whether to buy or not, regardless of any critique.
Quite frankly, I tend to avoid super high condition guns because in this day and age they are all suspect to me.
1892takedown @sbcglobal.net ......NRA Endowment Life Member.....WACA Member
"God is great.....beer is good.....and people are crazy"... Billy Currington
Here are Morphy’s terms:
https://www.morphyauctions.com/terms-conditions/
In my experience, most folks with deep pockets just bid for investment purposes. They have little interest, or even the time, in these forums. That’s why the faked high dollar stuff brings big money, only to just bring even more money later.
This carbine is not big money. It is in a price range that is a lot for the average person, but would be of little interest to the big money folks. However, given this could be purchased by someone of modest means as a cornerstone of their collection, and there are much less likely the chances of a big money person chasing this one down later for more money, the purchaser of this one could end up learning a very expensive lesson and this could be detrimental to one of modest means.
Moral of this story: It can pay to be well versed on these forums before reaching for one’s wallet.
clarence said
Amen, to that–it’s a business, not a social service. And since most auction items are non-returnable (without a lawsuit), it should be their responsibility to go over every item with a fine-toothed comb & absolutely NOT take the consigners word for anything!
I totally agree.
clarence said
Amen, to that–it’s a business, not a social service. And since most auction items are non-returnable (without a lawsuit), it should be their responsibility to go over every item with a fine-toothed comb & absolutely NOT take the consigners word for anything!
Yes, the ultimate responsibility is yours, as the bidder. If you find something suspicious, don’t bid!
All-
Interesting philosophical discussion… My own opinions on a couple of points FWIW…
First, that most will probably agree upon, is that auctions houses are, by definition, BUSINESSES. There’s no such thing as an “honest/ethical” auction house… If such a thing does exist it will never become much of a force in the marketplace. From the purely “business” perspective, there are two competing agendas. In the short run, auction houses make money (consignor’s and successful bidder’s commissions) by getting the highest hammer price at auction. So in the short run LYING is good… In the LONG run, however, auction houses have to consider their “reputation”. Reputation is what convinces bidders to put up big money, and by extension convinces the consignors who own the merchandise they want to sell to choose them as the intermediary. So there’s tension between the short term strategy and long term strategy if maintaining a viable (profitable) business is the objective. Honesty/ethics have nothing to do with it IMHO… 
As for the contention that “hands-on” inspection is invariably superior… This is just anecdotal and possibly related to bad eyesight… BUT… The biggest mistake I’ve made to date (big by M70 standards) was on a gun I bought after “hands-on” inspection (including an LED light and magnifier) at a gun show. It wasn’t until sometime later, looking at high-resolution digital photos I had taken, that I discovered my hands-on purchase was probably not what I thought it was… For Goodness sake!!! We’re looking at marks stamped in metal that are maybe 0.10″ high and were never intended by the manufacturer to be subject to forensic examination!!! My experience is that the auction houses will readily send addition photos upon request, and while it’s not the same as “hands-on” inspection (provided that the arms those hands are attached to belong to someone who knows what they’re handing) the auction houses do “try” to keep potential bidders happy… Good business practice, if nothing else…
Regarding Henry’s comments about the impact of carping by WACA “experts”, i.e. criticizing guns based on auction house photos… My own philosophy, to which I think (???) I have more-or-less adhered
, is to avoid comments on “originality” based on things like “finishes”. Understand that I consider myself qualified ONLY to comment on M70s (and maybe M54s). I read WACA posts like this only to learn what others look at when they buy guns… If someone posts a query about a gun with obvious issues (period-incorrect parts), I’ll express an opinion. If I knew as much as some of you, I might comment about whether a part that should be CC-finished was blued, but that’s not an issues with M70s. But I won’t publicly judge finishes based on those digital photos that are so disdained around these parts. In many cases, I have responded via PM to individuals asking my “opinion” based on digital, but won’t do it in “open court” where I could be subject to charges of slander…
Just my longwinded take…
Lou
WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters
November 7, 2015
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I’ve met and done business with the good folks at Morphy and won’t hesitate to do business with them again. I can assure you that they have some very knowledgeable experts on staff. I also agree that they are expected to sell a given item for as much as it will bring while being fair to the buyer. I feel their photos could be better but they’re much better than mine….which isn’t saying much. Could be the gun is better than the pics suggest.
As far as the number of folks reading these posts you might want to take notice of the number of “guests” on this forum at any given time.
Mike
I’ve bought from Morphy’s before and I got a great price on my purchase. The goal as a buyer is to find good value for the money. Something underpriced based on condition and current value. The goal of an auction house is the bottom line. Getting the best hammer price possible. The reputation of the auction house is also a factor. A bad reputation means less customers and a lower average hammer price. There is a fine line that must be walked in the industry. I’m sure the facts are often stretched. It’s likely a matter of how far they can be stretched. As always, do your homework and caveat emptor!
TXGunNut said
I’ve met and done business with the good folks at Morphy and won’t hesitate to do business with them again. I can assure you that they have some very knowledgeable experts on staff. I also agree that they are expected to sell a given item for as much as it will bring while being fair to the buyer. I feel their photos could be better but they’re much better than mine….which isn’t saying much. Could be the gun is better than the pics suggest.As far as the number of folks reading these posts you might want to take notice of the number of “guests” on this forum at any given time.
Mike
I must say that I may have commented on the 1890 that was posted at the same time not the 1892. I guess I got confused, again.
Morphy has a better reputation than quite a few of the others. Even great pictures don’t always tell the truth. That is why I like to see it in person. Not all experts are experts in everything.
It took some time but I finally found the actual gun I thought I was commenting on. It is in the 22 rimfire forum and is on the Guns America site.
I have never done business with Morphy’s so I have no first hand experience with them.
I have looked at these pictures quite a few times and to my untrained eyes all I can see that is questionable are the screws not having any finish, that is odd. As to the numbers and other markings I will leave that to the experts as I have never had to go that far in authenticating a gun. As I have said before pictures are a very questionable way to judge a gun especially the auction hose photos which are always 90 degrees dead on and edited a good bit. I never buy from an auction house or big time dealer. Nearly everything I buy comes in from an estate and is beyond question. Many times I am present when the owners bring the guns in. When I post some of them I always get a few comments about the gun being altered or enhanced. I know for a fact it has not been and I can tell the level of suspicion is very high. I think it is a shame what the collector market has become.
I do enjoy reading these threads as they are informative and interesting. I see many guns coming in for sale and have come to my own conclusions about condition and rarity. I do find all these extremely high condition guns at auction to be very suspicious. Too good to be true comes to mind. Every auction seems to have more then they should and when combined the number is way out of line with what I would call reasonable.
THIS ALL STARTED WITH JUST ONE GUN!
I’ve done some business with big auctions houses and here’s my take:
On one occasion when I attempted to move a couple of pieces with James Julia I found that I would be hard pressed to meet better people, period, exclamation mark. The team that they had at the Cody show some years back were a top notch group. I’m highly impressed with those folks right to this moment. Unfortunately this was about the time a merger was in the making with Morphy, and over six hundred lots in the auction, as I recall, did not sell! I got in touch with the office of Mark Ford, their CEO, who I had met along with his wonderful wife at Cody, and the ladies I spoke with had my firearms returned at his direction promptly and without any charges whatsoever, and in the very best of fashion where packaging and transit was concerned. I hope that all of this team is doing well today, wherever they might be. That said, if Morphy’s CEO and staff are anywhere close to the incredible professionals Mark Ford and his folks were, they would be a fantastic bunch to deal with, IMO. I am still impressed with him and his reps right to this moment.
On another occasion, I have had a noted auction house appraiser tell me that the butt stock on my Whitney-Kennedy 45-70 was not factory original to the rifle. He could not have been more wrong, as most all major parts of W-K’s are serial numbered to the gun as was the company’s normal procedures. So, the reputation that some firearms are branded with are not deserved and, therefore, I do try to be as careful as I can with my opinions where another person’s property is concerned. And, to make matters worse with the W-K appraisal, when I took the additional pictures and proved the appraiser wrong…he was a little man, and did not have the intestinal fortitude to correct himself, for whatever reason, even in private.
James
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