clarence said
KingCobb said
Here is the letter. Not surprisingly it was a 30 originally.
Letter doesn’t say anything about it being barrel replaced at factory, but I don’t know if they are supposed to. Everything else appears to check out.
They rarely do. But if a gun returned to the factory for some unspecified reason now has what appears to be a factory installed brl on it, it’s not unreasonable to conclude 2 + 2 = 4.
It is likely, but logic is still speculation. It reminds me of a M1886 I bought. The seller said it lettered all the way (the letter does contain an R&R). When I got it, I noted that all of the checkering had been removed. His response – “yeah, that letters.” I had the letter in my hands and asked how come I can’t see it? He said, “it’s right there – return and repair.” I said, “where do you get that?!” He responded, “what else could it be? It’s the only thing that’s different from how it was originally shipped.” He was using the 2 + 2 = 4 logic but I couldn’t completely get my head around the math.
steve004 said
It is likely, but logic is still speculation. It reminds me of a M1886 I bought. The seller said it lettered all the way (the letter does contain an R&R). When I got it, I noted that all of the checkering had been removed. His response – “yeah, that letters.” I had the letter in my hands and asked how come I can’t see it? He said, “it’s right there – return and repair.” I said, “where do you get that?!” He responded, “what else could it be? It’s the only thing that’s different from how it was originally shipped.” He was using the 2 + 2 = 4 logic but I couldn’t completely get my head around the math.
Well, not really, because “removing checkering” was never something the factory would have done; restocking with a non-checkered stock (because it was cheaper) was entirely possible.
KingCobb said
Question, the finish on the tang certainly looks like it had a lyman tang sight, but the letter mentions no such sight?
So would it be in letter if it came factory with one?
Yes, it would normally be listed on the factory letter if it came from the factory with one installed.
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
The seller neglected to mention what might be the most important detail and special order feature! which is the nickel steel barrel and 38-55 caliber. all 38-55 and 32-40 barrels were regular ordinance steel unless ordered other wise.
Jeremy Scott.
WACA LIFE MEMBER, CFM MEMBER, ABKA MEMBER, JSSC MEMBER, MNO HISTORIAN
KingCobb said
Well I made a lower offer that he accepted and so this piece of history should be coming my way. Question, the finish on the tang certainly looks like it had a lyman tang sight, but the letter mentions no such sight? So would it be in letter if it came factory with one?
I’m glad someone with a real appreciation for its history (if only it could talk!) is getting it. One might assume that kind of appreciation would be universal among collectors, but you’d be dead wrong, because many turn up their noses at a gun that shows such signs of honest use.
The letter you mention was not posted, but on the letter Bert posted, “Lyman front & rear” means a Lyman tang sight. It definitely had one at one time, presumably when it still had the .30 brl. If you wish to replace it, look for a Lyman #1 on ebay, not a 1A, which won’t be hard to find, but get one with a finish matching the rcvr.
clarence said
tionesta1 said
One thing I noticed is their is no proof mark on the receiver.
When rcvr was made, the proof wasn’t yet in use, but it was by the time the 2nd brl was ordered, after mid-1905.
I always thought that if a Winchester went back for an R&R for a barrel swap, or any reason that required a proof test after 1905 (I forget what month) when proof marks became standard, that they put the mark on both the receiver and top of the barrel.
tionesta1 saidI always thought that if a Winchester went back for an R&R for a barrel swap, or any reason that required a proof test after 1905 (I forget what month) when proof marks became standard, that they put the mark on both the receiver and top of the barrel.
If my dates are correct, the proof began to be applied to rcvrs in mid-1908, so I’d guess that if the brl was replaced between 1905 & 1908, there’d have been no protocol in place to mark the rcvr also. But even if it was replaced after 1908, it wouldn’t be shocking if a worker “forgot,” because can’t be assumed workers always followed official procedures, esp. when they really had no bearing on safety or function. In collecting US military, you soon discover that markings that should have been applied when certain operations were performed just aren’t there, & the most plausible explanation is “human error.”
Jeremy Scott. said
all 38-55 and 32-40 barrels were regular ordinance steel unless ordered other wise.
That is not a true statement. Winchester began using Nickel Steel barrels for both the 32-40 and 38-55 at the same time that they began offering both cartridges in the “W.H.V.” loading. By the early 1920s, nearly all barrels were Nickel Steel alloy regardless of the cartridge chambering (there were some made in Stainless Steel). The late production 32-40 and 38-55 barrels were Proof Steel alloy.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
clarence said
Chuck said
Weren’t proof marks added around 1905?
Yes, but at first on brls only, except .22RFs. Then in 1908, both brls & rcvrs, inc. 22s.
And that is not a true statement. When Winchester began applying the superposed “WP” proof marking to the center fire guns, it was stamped on both the barrel and receiver frame ring beginning in July 1905. The .22 rim fire rifles were not proof marked until 1908. In all of the many hundreds of factory original Winchesters I have inspected that were manufactured in the years 1905 and later, they have proof mark stamps in both locations.
Your theory that the Winchester employee who proofed the gun, but them forgot to stamp the frame ring after stamping the barrel does not hold true in my extensive research.
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Following this thread, big leap of faith to assume the barrel is original to the gun
Maybe I’m missing something, but how does one conclude that a Winchester Definitive Proofed barrel (ca. 1905) was installed during a factory R&R in 1899?
“If you can’t convince them, confuse them”
President Harry S. Truman
Bert H. said
When Winchester began applying the superposed “WP” proof marking to the center fire guns, it was stamped on both the barrel and receiver frame ring beginning in July 1905. The .22 rim fire rifles were not proof marked until 1908. In all of the many hundreds of factory original Winchesters I have inspected that were manufactured in the years 1905 and later, they have proof mark stamps in both locations.
Thanks for the correction, but I was sure I copied down those dates from a post on this forum. Not from any other forum, because I don’t belong to any others, nor from Madis, as I no longer have a copy of that book. So now I will have to correct the notebook in which I record these kinds of details.
Well unfortunately life intervened on me and I am no longer purchasing this firearm. Seller was completely understanding of the situation, and its back on gunbroker. It stinks as I think this a really cool old gun and was looking forward to seeing if it had service numbers on it from the barrel change or not. But alas that was not to be. Keep your eyes open. There might be some lever guns hitting the swap meet unfortunately.
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