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Competition for Winchester 1873
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January 9, 2016 - 11:40 pm
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I got one of those in 44-40

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And I found a LOOP lever on ebay and converted it. Easier to use when I need style points at a Cowboy Action Shoot!

Also have a Colt Lightning in 38-40

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That wierd butt stock has been replaced with a proper one.

 

Need to take some current pictures.

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January 10, 2016 - 1:02 am
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James

Interesting about the 45-70 chambering , as Yours must feed OK ?

If the action will handle the longer 45-70 , I wonder why it wasnt the dominant cal for the large action model ?  The Maxwell book states that Whitney was always agressively pursuing Military contracts from any Country and sometimes providing free samples to demonstrate. They were successful in obtaining small foreign orders for 45-60

Im sure the 45-70 would have been the preferred Cal worldwide (big game hunters too  ) mainly through proven track record and general familiarity ,  and availability of cartridges.

The only thing I can think of is that bad publicity with 45-70 in the Burgess Rifle may have been influential enough to make them determined to stick with the 45-60 ??? They experimented with the 45-75. but very few produced

Roy   How does the 38-40 Colt Lightning work for cowboy action ?. I assume the Kennedy (even with loop lever ) ,   with its longer lever throw ,  is slower than a Win 73

Phil

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January 11, 2016 - 7:32 pm
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25-20 said

James

Interesting about the 45-70 chambering , as Yours must feed OK ?

If the action will handle the longer 45-70 , I wonder why it wasnt the dominant cal for the large action model ?  The Maxwell book states that Whitney was always agressively pursuing Military contracts from any Country and sometimes providing free samples to demonstrate. They were successful in obtaining small foreign orders for 45-60

Im sure the 45-70 would have been the preferred Cal worldwide (big game hunters too  ) mainly through proven track record and general familiarity ,  and availability of cartridges.

The only thing I can think of is that bad publicity with 45-70 in the Burgess Rifle may have been influential enough to make them determined to stick with the 45-60 ??? They experimented with the 45-75. but very few produced

Roy   How does the 38-40 Colt Lightning work for cowboy action ?. I assume the Kennedy (even with loop lever ) ,   with its longer lever throw ,  is slower than a Win 73

Phil

 

Hi Phil,

I cycled a few rounds through it not long after I bought it, but nothing since then.

A cut to the lower part of the barrel had to be made to chamber the longer cartridge.  A cut also had to be made to chamber the 45-60 cartridge, but more metal had to be removed for the 45-70 round.  Go to the following link and you will see a 45-60 on GunBroker auction that has had metal removed from the lower middle portion of the barrel.  This gun has been altered significantly in more than one respect, but the cut in the barrel is larger than the typical cuts made on the other 45-60s I have seen.  That said, had the pictured gun barrel been cut in the typical fashion, there would be no need to make the cut as shown in the picture, leading one to believe that this cut might well have been factory done since the barrel is marked 45-60.  The cut on my 45-70 looks to be basically the same in size and shape.  See picture number 5 and 9:  http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=535560587

We think alike about the failed Burgess in 45-70, aside from a rifle that Maxwell’s judgement that the 3rd model was “by far the finest and smoothest Lever Action Magazine Gun on the market in 1879, and would have been for many years to come had the Third Model been first.”

James

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January 13, 2016 - 2:29 pm
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Phil, check your messages.

 

James

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January 13, 2016 - 11:38 pm
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One of the finest rifles I ever owned was a Deluxe large-frame Bullard lever action rifle. It had fancy walnut, checkered straight grip and fore-end, and case-colored receiver. Condition was close to 98%. Being a Winchester collector, I couldn’t resist, and traded it for a Winchester rifle I wanted. This was back in the mid-80’s. With it’s condition and rarity factor, the Bullard was probably worth twice what the Winchester was worth, but I didn’t know. Not many were made, so weren’t really competition for Winchester, but they were excellent guns.

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January 14, 2016 - 1:10 am
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Very cool  that would be a treasure.  I have a nice book on Bullard , I havent even got into yet. The only one I recall seeing was at an auction , also a Maynard there. They both were very rough and unshootable. If either had an Ok bore , they might be on my wall right now. But it has to have the potential to be shot

Probably the weirdest rifle I almost bought was an Evans repeater ‘new model’ (good bore and cond) thats claim to fame was its large capacity in stock magazine ( I think 34) . My Cartidge Wizzard making buddy knew what we could make brass out of , but he actually talked me out of it, as the excess clearance allowance for black powder fouling buildup would be awful for accuracy.I think heeled bullets had to be made too, and paper patching  Weird because its the only project he has shied away from.

He even wanted to make cartridges for my US Civil War , Sharps and Hankins Navy Issue single shot  (with salt protecting leather cover on barrel ), on the wall ,I think its 54 cal rimfire ,(good bore, but weak action) but he has appropriate cast bullets and knows how to do it. He is as eccentric as I am

Maybe someday

So many project so little time. ( I know you ask, why would you idiots do these things, why would you even think about it ?) Well a challenge ? and we could do a fair bit of it at work

Anyway getting back to conventional normalcy, Im about due to make a post on this thread about the respect and fondness I have  for the Winchester 1873 ( the direction I thought we were heading) and Im Surprised Bob hasnt beaten me to it

James I would like to see photos into the chambers of both your W-K’s when convenient

Phil

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January 14, 2016 - 7:33 pm
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Phil,

 

I’ll get a response to you as soon as I can.

 

James

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January 15, 2016 - 5:52 pm
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Some of my posts maybe a touch on the un-conventional side , as I am obsessed with the shooting of old guns

Some Upstanding WACA Members ( if not all ) consider me the Wacko.

Well in my defense it is Cabin fever season in Canada, and I cant get out to shoot. Im not in the Mad trapper class as of yet , but possibly inching in that direction, but will continue posting till cut off

My first 1873 was over 20 years ago. I was at my then favorite gunstore picking up re-loading stuff for 6ppc B/R that I was heavily into at the time. While there I was scouring the rack for 92’s and 94’s , that they always had a selection , and on the lower rack was this 1873 in the corner that looked lonely. I said whats with the 73. Oh an Old widow just dropped it off to the Police , who told her that it was an Antique, possibly worth something and mentioned the store. (they wont be this nice now , they destroy anything brought in)

It didnt look too bad overall (44) , bore wasnt great , but I thought it may clean up with work and was cheap. So I happily took it home. (I soon discovered that my ‘Buddy’ had forgot to tell me about all the broken and worn parts) Talk about a well used and abused gun . I wonder how many rounds had been shot out of it

I took it all apart and analyzed what it needed. I ordered a new firing pin , and a few parts that were available. What wasnt available , I took to our TIG welder and got him to weld parts that I could re-machine. Initially I was a bit peeved , but it turned into an iteresting project on a simple and easy to work on mechanism. (I was soaking the bore and cleaning it too, now it was shiney again but with wear and pitting )

After it Was finally finished I was dying to try it out . I found it threw the first shot about 2 feet high , and after although groups were big , it was hitting point on and fun to shoot.

Next time I was at the store, I mentioned that it wasnt a tackdriver. He looked at me with concern “You cant shoot that gun”

I marveled at the simplicity of design , and the crude but efficient lifting system. I think this is the fastest and surest lift model for Cowboy action shooting (as witnessed on some of the incredible U tube videos) and also explains late sales of the 73 ,long after the faboulous mod 1892 was out and should have made it obsolete.

as we 92 shooters know,  the slant ramp feeding system can hang up , and do weird  things, especially with bullet shapes it doesnt like

The 73 experience led me to buy a couple of Uberti replica 1873 OBR’s in 32-20 , and 38-40, and am very impressed with them.

I have recently bought a 38 cal made in 1887 VG bore ,  that has excceded my expectations especially accuracy wise

Phil

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January 15, 2016 - 5:52 pm
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25-20 said 

…..

James I would like to see photos into the chambers of both your W-K’s when convenient

Phil

Phil,

Here are the pictures of three rifles with the link to the 45-60 Whitney-Kennedy which needs to be a part of this discussion since the “cut” in it is a good match with the cut in my 45-70 W-K.  The first is that of a 45-70 Burgess that I no longer own which is why I have blocked out the serial number that is shown on its floor plate.  The second is the picture of the 45-60 Whitney-Kennedy featured on GB at ( http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=516734933 ).  The third is the picture of my 45-60 and a cut that is a good match for the type made in the typical fashion for this particular caliber.  That said, let me point out that I have only been able to observe the “cut” in a few 45-60s, and each of them appear to differ slightly in size and shape. The fourth picture is that of my 45-70 W-K and, again, the cut in it is a good match in size and shape as that shown on the 45-60 on auction, but might differ slightly one way or the other.

Picture 1:

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j22/bmt43/DSC02341_zpsu1cc6sjm.jpgImage Enlarger

Picture 2:

Click on link and scroll down to Picture 5 in order to observe “cut” to the barrel:    http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=516734933

Picture 3: My 45-60 W-K

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j22/bmt43/IMG_1314_zpsca1alaat.jpgImage Enlarger

Picture 4:  My 45-70 W-K.  (Receiver caliber marking included and to be discussed after the subject matter regarding the chamber modifications.)

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j22/bmt43/IMG_0379_zpsl0ssni2j.jpgImage Enlarger

Picture 5 Added:  My 45-70 W-K

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j22/bmt43/IMG_0380_zps248dab84.jpgImage Enlarger

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