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CGH Marked 1873, Authentic?
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November 14, 2019 - 8:27 pm
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Hello all,

I recently acquired this Winchester 1873 Saddle Ring Carbine in 44 cal. from an estate sale here in Honolulu, Hawaii.  It was sold alongside another CGH marked 1876 musket with bayonet.  From what I understand, the CGH marking indicates that it was a rifle belonging to a member of the Citizens Guard of Hawaii, which disbanded in 1898.  I could find other CGH marked rifles from online auctions, with provenance from John A. Bell, who lived here and provided provenance to collectors of these rifles.  I did find that he had come across fakes as well, just wanted to get your thoughts on this example and it’s authenticity.  Serial number is 372xxx, and ends with either a P or an R, which I think places it around 1891.  I’ve been searching the Hawaii State Archives in an effort to replicate the research done by Mr. Bell.  Wish me luck.  

 

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November 15, 2019 - 12:35 am
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If you supply the complete serial number I can check my survey of 73’s and I have access to the Springfield Research.

Bob

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73_86cutaway.jpg

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November 15, 2019 - 12:52 am
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Hi Bob, 

 

That’d be great!  Serial is 372665, ending in either a ‘P’, or an ‘R’.  Here’s a link to a decent photo.  Thanks for any assistance.  https://dygtyjqp7pi0m.cloudfront.net/i/40556/34850172_20.jpg?v=8D766604189FBB0

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November 15, 2019 - 1:19 am
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Its a B behind the serial number. 73’s started without a letter then they added a A and then went to the B.

I checked my survey and your gun was not in there and its not in the Springfield Research either. There is one 73 in my survey, a 44 carbine serial number 395918 with “CGH-13” stamped on stock.

Bob

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November 15, 2019 - 1:53 am
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Thank you for your help.  I’m not super hopeful looking at the material I saw at the state archives, as a ton of the 44 carbines listed didn’t have serial numbers.  Thank you for looking.

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November 15, 2019 - 2:22 am
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I looked at the pictures of the records and it looks like they are 44 carbine 73’s from the serial numbers and I checked many of them against my survey which is close to 18,000 from many sources and didn’t find one single match which makes me think they could never of been sold to the public.

Bob

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November 15, 2019 - 7:03 am
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Sorry, I’m not sure I’m following, you checked the serials of some of the 1873s in my photos & didn’t get a match on any?  You’re saying it might be possible the carbine I have wasn’t sold to the public, or was government issue?  Interesting. 

I dug through more photos that I took from the state archives, and it seems that the most complete records there are on 1876s by far.  I’m planning to go back and take more time to go through the rosters.  Here’s a link to an album of some hasty photos I took if it’s of any interest to you.  Thanks again! 

Citizens Guard Hawaii Records

Link to the 1876 sold at same auction

https://bid.oahuauctions.com/Antique-Rifle-Carved-C-G-H-Citizens-Guard-of-Hawaii-44-Cal-w-Bayonet-Model-1876-MUST-HAVE-PERMIT_i34850175

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November 15, 2019 - 5:53 pm
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[email protected] said
Sorry, I’m not sure I’m following, you checked the serials of some of the 1873s in my photos & didn’t get a match on any?  You’re saying it might be possible the carbine I have wasn’t sold to the public, or was government issue?  Interesting.

Yes, or sold to a foreign government and never came back. I still have some more numbers to check.

Bob

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November 15, 2019 - 10:41 pm
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Hello,

There appears to be a fair amount of wood removed around the wrist of the stock from sanding yet the stamped lettering appears to be very crisp.  I might question the authenticity of the CGH letters.

Michael

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Model 1892 / Model 61 Collector, Research, Valuation

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November 16, 2019 - 1:40 am
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It was sold alongside another CGH marked 1876 Musket in poor condition, so I’m pretty hopeful it’s authentic.

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November 25, 2022 - 7:34 am
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[email protected] – This is a long shot. Just wondering if during your research you came across a listing for model 1886, S/N 98801? Been trying to track down information on it’s time in Hawaii, all I have vague stories handed down from family. I also have the Winchester factory letter doesn’t shed any light on where it was sent.

Mahalo,

Mark

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February 16, 2023 - 9:06 pm
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Hi Mark,

 

My apologies for not seeing your reply earlier.  I did get a chance to go back to the State Archive and photograph near every serial number I could find.  I’ll take a look through the listings and holler if I find anything.  

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February 18, 2023 - 3:10 am
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Maybe I’m missing something here, but does you’re carbine have CGH markings or are you just assuming it may be a guard gun, because it was in an estate sale with a CGH marked ’76 musket?  

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March 24, 2023 - 7:27 pm
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win4575 said
Maybe I’m missing something here, but does you’re carbine have CGH markings or are you just assuming it may be a guard gun, because it was in an estate sale with a CGH marked ’76 musket?  

  

My 1873 Carbine has CGH markings.  The estate sale I bought it from had another ’76 musket with identical CGH stamp.  I sorely regret not being able to afford purchasing both of them.  Some newer photos here:

CGH-Stamped Winchester 1873

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March 24, 2023 - 7:31 pm
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Ilio said
[email protected] – This is a long shot. Just wondering if during your research you came across a listing for model 1886, S/N 98801? Been trying to track down information on it’s time in Hawaii, all I have vague stories handed down from family. I also have the Winchester factory letter doesn’t shed any light on where it was sent.

Mahalo,

Mark

  

Mark, here’s a link to every single photo that we took of the Citizens Guard Hawaii records.  We documented every serial number we could find.  Is your 1886 stamped with CGH?  What’s the date on your factory letter?  https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipPklDFjEnPdW-WTtMYX47Th599ary-QFr22vmWGbYNn4k-0Xs6u7IYP5_nX4jmYhw?key=bE5zTlZZbEJrdGZNRU90VHpNeEhWUTdqaGRIVEpR

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March 25, 2023 - 3:25 am
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Ilio said
[email protected] – This is a long shot. Just wondering if during your research you came across a listing for model 1886, S/N 98801? Been trying to track down information on it’s time in Hawaii, all I have vague stories handed down from family. I also have the Winchester factory letter doesn’t shed any light on where it was sent.

Mahalo,

Mark

  

 

98801 is on the list.  You have to look at the pages that show the serial numbers too.  It is quite a way into the pages.

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