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I was looking at a few mint 1894 rifles on line and one in person and noted that the VERY high condition ORIGINAL rifles in the over 800,000 range (could be much earlier???) contain a blued cross bolt (or, what exactly IS the name for the piece between the main bolt and the hammer). When did this start occurring and for how long?
The cross bolt safety started in 1992
Bob
WACA Life Member--- NRA Life Member---- Cody Firearms member since 1991 Researching the Winchester 1873's
Email: [email protected]
No, I meant the cross bolt, as found on all rifles, but I am referring to those from rifles, probably from the ‘teens or so.
Yes that is likely it. It would be between the hammer and bolt when looking at the top of the receiver. Some high dollar Winchesters from the late teens on James Julia’s auction site show this part to have been blued at that time.
As far as I have seen they all are blued, even on a case colored 94.
Bob
WACA Life Member--- NRA Life Member---- Cody Firearms member since 1991 Researching the Winchester 1873's
Email: [email protected]
That very well may be the case! I think up until today I believed them to be white steel; then when examining a ca 1918 rifle today I noted this locking bolt was blued. Thinking it perhaps to be wrong I researched the matter and determined it to be correct for a ca 1918 rifle, and maybe all others as well. Funny how the mind notices a small detail such as this today, never having even noticed such a small detail for the last thirty years.
At some time near the 1940s, the top of the locking bolt was polished in the white.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Bert,
If they polished it and removed the finish, wouldn’t it start to rust if not kept oiled?
Bob
WACA Life Member--- NRA Life Member---- Cody Firearms member since 1991 Researching the Winchester 1873's
Email: [email protected]
January 26, 2011
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mrcvs said
That very well may be the case! I think up until today I believed them to be white steel; then when examining a ca 1918 rifle today I noted this locking bolt was blued. Thinking it perhaps to be wrong I researched the matter and determined it to be correct for a ca 1918 rifle, and maybe all others as well. Funny how the mind notices a small detail such as this today, never having even noticed such a small detail for the last thirty years.
That is one reason I enjoy collecting these rifles. Just when you think you know all the right details to look at, you will find something else that sparks a question. Then you have to go get more out of the safe to verify some kind of pattern. What might be a new discovery to you will be something a fellow collector was fixated on years ago. Keep raising these questions because even if they seem like small or insignificant details, it will surely be of some interest to the next guy who’s yet to notice it.
~Gary~
1873man said
Bert,
If they polished it and removed the finish, wouldn’t it start to rust if not kept oiled?
Bob
Bob,
You would think so, but I have seen a few thousand Model 64 rifles and Model 94 carbines with the top of the locking lug in the white, with no rust. Just like the barrel muzzles that were intentionally left in the white.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Thank you for the replies! Do we, amongst us all, want to try to figure out exactly when the locking bolt was changed from blued to polished steel? Obviously, in 1918, it was blued; by the 1940’s, according to Bert, it was polished steel. I don’t know why I thought it to be polished steel until yesterday, as I have not had a Winchester 1894 in the over 1 million range in my hands in a long time. My guess as to why it was changed to polished steel would be that I should think that a significant number of workings of the action open and closed would cause significant wear to the bluing of the locking bolt. And this is why, until yesterday, while assessing this rifle, I did not notice this part as being blued, probably because the wear was minimal to nonexistent. The firearm was right as rain, and I reasoned this had to be correct, because the rest of the firearm is of such high quality, even though, for some reason, I otherwise believed this part to be polished steel.
mrcvs said
Thank you for the replies! Do we, amongst us all, want to try to figure out exactly when the locking bolt was changed from blued to polished steel? Obviously, in 1918, it was blued; by the 1940’s, according to Bert, it was polished steel. I don’t know why I thought it to be polished steel until yesterday, as I have not had a Winchester 1894 in the over 1 million range in my hands in a long time. My guess as to why it was changed to polished steel would be that I should think that a significant number of workings of the action open and closed would cause significant wear to the bluing of the locking bolt. And this is why, until yesterday, while assessing this rifle, I did not notice this part as being blued, probably because the wear was minimal to nonexistent. The firearm was right as rain, and I reasoned this had to be correct, because the rest of the firearm is of such high quality, even though, for some reason, I otherwise believed this part to be polished steel.
Yes… I would welcome any assistance in this endeavor. I will put it all together in an Excel spreadsheet (with all of my other survey data), and after at least a few hundred have been surveyed (both with and without bluing), I can post the survey information.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Bert (as well as everyone else),
I recently provided another Winchester 1894 rifle for your survey (number 978178). The date on this one is 18 April 1925. The locking bolt on this one was polished steel. Now, this firearm was refinished (wood) and reblued. If the locking bolt had been reblued, it would be impossible to know for certain if, originally, it contained a polished steel surface, or was blued. However, this reblued firearm did contain a polished steel locking bolt. The possibilities are, as follows: Locking bolts were polished steel as early as April of 1925, or, the more remote possibility: this is a composite firearm, made up of existing parts and the receiver dates from 1925 and the locking bolt is from a firearm of 1940’s (or later) vintage, as, previous posts suggest a polished locking bolt dates from the 1940’s.
I have confirmed that Winchester was still bluing the top of the locking bolt as late as serial number 1115910. I am looking for more specimens in the 1110000 – 1301000 range.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
nascar fan said
1118208 is blue
Thanks. Can you provide the details about the gun? I would like to add it to my research survey.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Sure Bert, 1118202 has 20″ barrel, shotgun butt, three row upper tang rollmark, cal 30 W.C.F.–, rear sight is plugged and fitted with a Redfield receiver sight. Long forewood, ramped front sight. Proof marks are dead top 1/2 in. apart. Hammer has about a 1/4 square cross-hatch pattern.
Let me know if I missed something. Thanks, Charles
Charles,
Is it the serrated steel shotgun butt plate, or the black hard rubber? Full length mag?
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
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