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Big Larry said
Auction # 523878616. Can anyone ID the big problem with this rifle? Big Larry
Larry:
That 1894 should not have proof marks unless the barrel was replaced during an R&R. The caliber marking on that 94 is the third type used which started showing up in late 1907.
Paul
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Big Larry
This 1894 has the right SNA date, Rec. date and ship date for that serial # but, as has already been stated, there should be no proof stamp on a gun from 1904 unless it was sent in for an R&R which does not show on the Winchester letter. The letter states 30 WCF and the barrel is 32 W.S.. That caliber marking was not being used until late 1906. This is old news to you but, I just got back on the forum after a long absence so adding my 2 cents worth.
Paul
I have Mod. 94 ser#137206 with proof marks on bbl. and receiver . Letter says rifle, 30 cal ,rnd. bbl ,24 in., xtra lite, plain trig. Lyman fr. and rear sites, 1/2 mag., rubber plate, takedown, shipped Ap. 7 1902. There is no mention of a return or repair, which leads Me to believe not all returns were noterized. The letter also does not mention the xxx wood (which it has ) or the checkered, shotgun butt which it also has. The factory letters for these grand old firearms are definately a guide to the configuration of a specific gun , but from My experience not always gospel. Henry
W.A.C.A. life member, Marlin Collectors Assn. charter and life member, C,S.S.A. member and general gun nut.
I wonder if we all are looking at the same rifle. The one listed as 523878616 has a crescent (not shotgun) buttplate and the letter does say it is checkered. That having been said, it sold for $5,665 which is a princely sum for a rifle that has been altered, if indeed, it has and I would think anyone shelling out that kind of $$$$ would do his homework. I sent the seller a note and got a polite reply stating that he, too, was aware of the caliber discrepancy between the barrel and the letter. He stated he thought it might have been an error in record keeping or a barrel change somewhere along the line.
The 1894 model is not my primary interest, so I can’t claim any expertise here, but I did do some research. According to Pirkle there was a transition period around serial number 250,000 and some guns in that period may have the proof mark on the receiver only or on the barrel only or both or none. (The reference copyright is 1998 so when he refers to this being 1902 he is using the Madis dates). He also states that the Special Order Shop stockpiled parts in bins for up to several years, and this specimen has enough features for one to expect that it was a special order rifle. The caliber 32 W.S. came out in 1901, so that also is consistent with the date of this rifle (attached a Mertz photo of a rifle in 32 W.S. made about the same time).
Initially I thought this rifle has been altered but now, after looking closely at all the photos and having done some research, I’m satisfied that it is 100% original, though I dropped out of the bidding in the $3K range. To me it is quite probable someone wrote in 30 instead of 32 in the factory ledger.
"This is the West, sir. When the legend becomes fact, print the legend."
Some legers are extremely hard to read and researchers that can deciper every scribble are to be commended. In this case the first Letter had mistakes due to ledger being almost indechipherable, but on re lettering it was scrutenized carefully and came out all correct. Sample pics of how some entries in the ledger look like. I cant make much out of it.
The tiny thin lines on either side of the central pic image are also pics that can be ckicked on to enlarge
Having looked at and deciphered more than 110,000 Winchester ledger records, I can attest to how difficult it is to read a small number of them. Sometimes the person making the entry crammed what should have taken three lines to enter all into one line, most often on a specimen that had a lot of extra features.
In regards to the serial number range when Winchester began marking the Model 1894 with the superposed “WP” proof marks, I have it nailed down very, very, close. Based on my findings, Winchester always marked the barrel and frame ring on the receiver… never just one or the other. With rare exception, the proof mark stamping began very near serial number 264000, and the highest serial number I have confirmed without proof marks is 270218 (PR date 5/29/1905). All serial numbers I have surveyed > 270218 have dual proof marks on them.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
1892takedown said
Hi Bob,
I havent looked at many 73’s in detail but was wondering if the the “CF” appears on some/all casehardened framed rifles/carbines or only ones that have fancy wood, checked wood, PG stocks, or non-standard butts?
I looked at a couple of casehardened 76 rifles last night and one (1/2 mag, crescent butt, plain wood) has only the assembly number on the lower tang, the other (26″ bbl, shotgun butt, plain wood) that has the assembly number in addition to the “CF”.
Just trying to develop a pattern or set of scenarios for why it occurs.
Chris
Chris,
I just found a 73 in the Oct. 2015 Julia’s catalog item 3024. its a blued 22 rifle with a plain pistol grip and Shotgun butt. It states it has the CF on the tang. Thats the first non cased 73 I have heard with the CF on it so it looks like it means Custom Fit.
Bob
WACA Life Member--- NRA Life Member---- Cody Firearms member since 1991 Researching the Winchester 1873's
Email: [email protected]
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